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GTG
Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 2387
Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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 Posted: 3/18/2004, 6:50 am Post subject: No big cats in Arizona fit to roar for the lions |
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From today's Arizona Republic
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0318montini18.html#
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No big cats in Arizona fit to roar for the lions
Mar. 18, 2004 12:00 AM
I came face to face with my first mountain lion as a 17-year-old steelworker's son who had never been camping, never been hunting and had never seen anything in the wild that was more ferocious than a squirrel.
I was tentative about approaching the big cat, of course, with its muscular shoulders, paws like fists and dark, unblinking eyes. But I pulled myself together and managed to get close enough to actually run my index finger along the lion's tawny back.
Perhaps because it was stuffed. And the security guard wasn't looking.
In those days I had managed through luck and lax academic standards to be granted admission to Pennsylvania State University, which is in the mountainous center of the state. The school mascot is the Nittany Lion. The first part of its name is taken from an Algonquian word for "single mountain," a place where cougars once roamed.
The last of the Pennsylvania mountain lions was killed in 1856. It then was stuffed, mounted and put on display at the university, where it served as a magnificent embodiment of strength, independence and beauty. Apparently, the exhibit was meant to inspire students to adopt the lion's noble characteristics or, failing that, eradicate the filthy animals.
Which is what we're about to do in Arizona.
At Sabino Canyon near Tucson, a group of mountain lions is soon to be eradicated for the offense of attempting to live wild and free in proximity to SUVs, swimming pools, putting greens, barbecue pits, toy poodles and pasty-faced humans wearing expensive hiking boots.
"Our first concern is public safety," said Arizona Game and Fish Commissioner Joe Carter, part of a board that is unanimous in its belief that some of the Sabino Canyon mountain lions must be killed.
Game and Fish officials are worried that the lions may attack a person. They say that the cats are being seen during daylight hours and actually have stalked people. There are homes and schools in the area.
Gov. Janet Napolitano and others have asked the commission to find other ways of dealing with the problem. But it's too late for that. Game and Fish commissioners aren't responsible for the unchecked statewide growth that is transforming wild Arizona into an enormous suburb. And, unfortunately, the lions appear incapable of distinguishing between otherwise innocent intruders in their territory and local politicians, who would benefit from a well-placed paw to the behind.
On the Game and Fish Web site, the department describes why it believes that nothing short of killing some lions will do. The animals can't be relocated, they say, because they're too territorial. No zoo wants them, since captive breeding fulfills that need. Aversion techniques are expensive and don't work. And, they say, fencing is not an option.
Ugly stucco walls apparently are an option, however. Driveways are an option. Jogging trails are an option. Schools and parks and shopping centers are an option. Given all that, mountain lions are not an option.
The argument ultimately isn't over lions anyway. The Game and Fish Department says that lions are not endangered in Arizona. They say there are approximately 2,500 throughout the state.
This fight isn't over cats; it's over the West. It has to do with how long it will take before Arizona goes from an untamed and natural place to something that only looks that way. A movie backdrop. A landscape that no longer is Arizona but could play it on TV.
"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell," said the writer Edward Abbey, who lived, died and is buried in Arizona. Abbey isn't around to fight this fight, however. Neither are any of the personified lions who once roamed the state. No Barry Goldwaters. No Mo Udalls.
Some environmental activists are trying to help the animals in Sabino Canyon. Even if they fail, there will be mountain lions here, at least for a while. But in a state being overrun by bulldozers and red tile roofs, the ruggedly territorial, fiercely independent individuals who made this state - our coolest cats - are in danger of becoming extinct.
Reach Montini at ed.montini@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-8978.
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Truly a sad time for Arizona.
GTG
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cactuscat
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 459
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 3/18/2004, 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Amen, Todd. Seeing a mountain lion in the wild was one of my biggest ever outdoor thrills. Sometimes I really hate AZG&F - and to think I want to work for those bastards some day! |
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jlb
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 23
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| Posted: 3/18/2004, 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reprint. I have seen a lion or two since living here and hiking and have held that experience as numbered amongst my finest.
although I believe humans should be protected (even if from our own stupidity) above lions, it is a shame that we have felt the need to encroach on the rest of the world to get our wants met...
Surely we will not go down as Gods finest hour
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GTG
Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 2387
Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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| Posted: 3/18/2004, 2:46 pm Post subject: Wildlife officials call off Tucson lion hunt, plan to tranqu |
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Latest and greatest for the Republic.
I guess Goldwater rolled over in his grave and now should be smiling.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0318Sabino-Lions-ON.html#
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Wildlife officials call off Tucson lion hunt, plan to tranquilize
Mary Jo Pitzl
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 18, 2004 02:29 PM
The mountain lions in Sabino Canyon will be tranquilized and removed to a private rehabilitation facility, the Arizona Game and Fish Department said Thursday afternoon, as it dropped plans to shoot and kill the lions.
Agency officials said the operation will achieve the goal Game and Fish has been after all along: To remove the lions from the canyon northeast of Tucson because the animals appear to have lost their wariness of humans.
In a news release, Steve Farrell, deputy director of the agency, called the change in approach "an exception to the rule, an extraordinary exception."
Since the Game and Fish commissioners voted unanimously Tuesday to continue the agency's shoot-to-kill policy, public outcry has been loud and strong.
It was unclear immediately why the agency changed tactics. On Monday, commission chair Sue Chilton wrote to Gov. Janet Napolitano and said removing and handling drugged mountain lions in rugged terrain such as Sabino Canyon puts Game and Fish employees in "unreasonable jeopardy."
She also noted that adult mountain lions, as these are suspected to be, do not fare well in captivity.
Game and Fish officials said the lion removal would start sometime next week and would last for an undetermined amount of time.
Officials did not immediately identify the facility where the lions would be taken if they are captured.
Game officials believe there are three to four mountain lions in Sabino Canyon which pose a threat to public safety. There have been reports of the lions stalking people, although few of those reports have been confirmed and there have been no injuries.
The department is holding a question-and-answer session Friday in Tucson on the mountain-lion issue. The meeting runs from 11 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at the Pima County Supervisors building, 130 W. Congress.
Reach the reporter at maryjo.pitzl@arizonarepublic.com or at (602) 444-8963.
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I wonder who owns the rehab facility, I wonder who the witnesses were...
GTG
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desertgirl
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 3350
Location: Chandler, AZ
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GTG
Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 2387
Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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| Posted: 3/18/2004, 3:48 pm Post subject: cats and such |
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The cats are going to a private rehab facility. Not to make light of the subject but it sounds like they're all going for methadone treatment or something. Imagine if the private rehab facility is some rich guy's BIG backyard or some such.
I hope they decide to release the cats somewhere a bit more remote. Five to ten years down the road, Sabino will be more populated and more cats will have moved into the vacated territory and the process recycles itself.
GTG
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GTG
Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 2387
Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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| Posted: 3/19/2004, 7:30 am Post subject: Mountain lions to be removed |
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More about this on-going mess from today's Arizona Republic -
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Mountain lions to be removed
State to capture Sabino Canyon cats
Mary Jo Pitzl
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 19, 2004 12:00 AM
The Sabino Canyon mountain lions' death sentence has been commuted to life in captivity.
The Arizona Game and Fish Department announced Thursday it intends to tranquilize the mountain lions and remove them to a private rehabilitation facility, instead of shooting them.
The change in policy did not appease all of Game and Fish's critics, including Gov. Janet Napolitano, who continues to say the agency has not demonstrated why the lions are a threat to human safety.
Adding to the drama, Game and Fish issued a news release late Thursday stating that a mountain lion was seen in the parking lot of a Sabino Canyon middle school earlier in the day. The sighting was not confirmed by a second party.
The change in tactics comes two days after the commission voted unanimously to continue with the shoot-to-kill order after honoring a five-day moratorium.
"What the governor is still missing here: Where is the stalking behavior?" said Jeanine L'Ecuyer, Napolitano's press secretary. She said reports submitted by Game and Fish failed to prove that mountain lions have been stalking or menacing humans.
Game and Fish officials would not comment on why they changed plans.
In a news release, Deputy Director Steve Ferrell said the removal decision fits with the agency's goal to get the mountain lions out of Sabino Canyon, but departs from policies for dealing with animals that they believe threaten human safety.
"This situation is an exception to the rule, an extraordinary exception," Ferrell said in the release.
Game officials believe there are three to four mountain lions in Sabino Canyon which pose a threat to people. There have been reports of the lions stalking people, although few of those reports have been confirmed and there have been no injuries.
Thursday's report came from a cafeteria worker at Esperero Canyon Middle School, at the entrance of Sabino Canyon. School officials escorted students through the parking lot when classes were dismissed at their regular time.
School officials could not be reached for comment; Game and Fish officials said they had no further information and referred all queries to a question-and-answer session to be held this morning in Tucson.
Thursday's decision contradicts the agency's earlier position that shooting the cougars was the only way to remove the threat to public safety.
On Monday, commission chair Sue Chilton wrote to Napolitano that removing and handling drugged mountain lions in rugged terrain such as Sabino Canyon puts Game and Fish employees in "unreasonable jeopardy."
She also noted that adult mountain lions, as these are suspected to be, do not fare well in captivity.
It is believed the lions, if captured, would be taken to the Keepers of the Wild facility for exotic animals, located about 45 miles northwest of Kingman and southeast of Las Vegas.
Chilton also explained that the agency explored other options to shooting the cougars, but rejected them. For example, removing the animals to another area would only move the problem around, not cure it, Chilton wrote. And using tactics to scare the animals away, such as hazing them or hitting them with bean bags, is only occasionally successful, she wrote.
Chilton also said the agency rejected the idea of keeping Sabino Canyon closed (it has been closed since March 9) since game officials doubt the lions would leave even as the weather heats up.
Game and Fish officials said the mountain lion removal would start sometime next week and would last for an undetermined amount of time.
They said the operation would be costly, given the helicopter expenses involved in airlifting out the mountain lions. The agency will look for contributions from outside groups to defray costs.
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It's been my understanding that these cats are highly territorial and usually do not live in such close proximity to each other. I was to understand that these cat's territories could extend up to forty miles or so. I understand each animal is different and that human encroachment has probably forced the cats to live with smaller, crossing bounbaries. Does anyone know the relative size of the Sabino Canyon area? I'd like to hear the cafeteria workers interview, my guess is it was a large house cat or bobcat they saw. I'd like to hear Nighthiker's comments. Here's a link to Keepers of the Wild -
http://www.keepersofthewild.org/
GTG
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whereveriroam
Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 205
Location: Chandler,AZ
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| Posted: 3/19/2004, 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Sabino Canyon is narrow but about 4 or 5 miles long from what I remember. My hunch is the big fire in the Catalina's displaced them from their natural homes, just about all the higher elevations burned. I wonder if any other area's at the base of the Catalina's have had increased cat activitey. |
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Nighthiker
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1714
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| Posted: 3/19/2004, 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Could be a pair looking for love or a couple of males checking out the area to establish their area. The area of the sightings is easy access so they should be able to verify the type of cat, good training exercise for trackers. Lot of big cats in the back country and along the urban interface. Only a matter of time before a cat harvest a golfer. |
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azhiker96
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1419
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| Posted: 3/19/2004, 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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I am glad they've decided to move the cats rather than kill them. I do like seeing all animals in the wild. It's too bad there's been sightings near a school. At least AZG&F is not waiting until a child has been killed to take action. It took predation of joggers before California took action. :(
Maybe they could move the kittys to Arcadia to address the roof rat problem. They could put out a call for people to volunteer their backyards for releasing the cats.
I guess as a society we have to decide a couple of things. What do we want to do when our boundaries overlap with predators that could kill humans? Traditionally we've killed the predator. Is there a better option? Do we want to accept predation of humans as a normal part of nature?
I think moving these cats to the wilderness could be the worst thing for their species. Most animals in the wild are cautious about humans which keeps down incidents with campers and hikers in the wild. However, cats on the fringe of our cities lose their fear of humans. What would happen if these carnivores were transplanted to the wild where they can encounter humans one at a time? It would probably mean suppertime for a kitty. That would lead to reports of dead campers and hikers. Then the general public would get scared and call for a return to the bad old days of open seasons and bounties.
Just a few of my thoughts on the subject. I'm open to other ideas and discussion. If we come up with something great we can write letters to the editor and our congressmen and maybe get something changed.
:) |
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GTG
Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 2387
Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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| Posted: 3/19/2004, 4:38 pm Post subject: People vent, but little changed on lion removal |
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Also from today's Republic -
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People vent, but little changed on lion removal
Associated Press
Mar. 19, 2004 04:01 PM
TUCSON - People on all sides vented Friday at state wildlife officials who insist that mountain lions in Sabino Canyon are a danger to the public and must be removed.
Some praised but others castigated wildlife officials over flip-flopped decisions to kill and then not to kill the lions. On Thursday, officials from the Arizona Game and Fish Department said they would tranquilize and airlift out at least three lions believed to be living in the canyon.
Proponents and opponents of removing the animals frequently jeered one another during the meeting, which about 60 people attended.
And while some residents were insistent that the lions should be removed for reasons of public safety, others were equally adamant that there hasn't been sufficient evidence to merit the cats' removal.
Game and Fish Department officials and the commission that oversees the department say there are clear signs that the animals no longer fear humans and now pose a danger to thousands of visitors a day as well as to people living near the canyon.
A Game and Fish officer confirmed a sighting Thursday of a mountain lion outside Esperero Canyon Middle School, finding a partial mountain lion track in a nearby wash.
"The commission has an ongoing and constant public safety concern," said Hayes Gilstrap, one of the commission's five volunteer members. "The sighting is a concern."
Area resident Carter Rose asked why the decision to remove the lions was "being made on the basis of fear," only to be told that it was a decision based on public safety.
"I think they're responding out of experience and practicality," said Steve Ferrell, Game and Fish Department deputy director.
Bill Berlat, a retired chairman of the commission, said commissioners "should have stuck with their guns."
He also accused legislators, who have challenged the lion decision, of micromanaging the department.
Reps. Tom Prezelski and Ted Downing and Sen. Gabrielle Giffords, all Tucson Democrats, defended their involvement.
"To live in a democracy, it is absolutely critical for the public to speak out on issues," Giffords said.
Ferrell said staff members will track and tranquilize the animals. "We will live-capture them and put them in captivity," he said.
But late in the 90-minute meeting, when biologist Daniel Patterson of the Center for Biological Diversity asked for examples of where adult cougars have flourished in captivity, Ferrell admitted: "It's our experience that adult cougars do not do well in captivity."
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On the Net:
Game and Fish Department: http://www.gf.state.az.us/
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This just keeps getting more interesting.
GTG
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Leva
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Hidden Valley (Maricopa area) AZ
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| Posted: 3/20/2004, 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have to respectfully disgree with a lot of people on this board.
I guess I have a different perspective ... I live in the desert and I have livestock. I'm out here 24/7, and I've spent most of my life around animals and know animal behavior a lot better than some of the folks squawking about killing the lions.
I've come face to face with a lion in the wild twice, one lion exited the area in a hurry, the other stopped and stared at me for a very long time and showed no fear -- it had been in a tree and I'd approached to within ten feet of it a couple of times without knowing it was there. I now carry a gun or go with my dogs if I'm hiking in that area! (Ellison Creek area, BTW, not too far from Horton where a lot of people like to hike.)
I've also seen one on horseback, and have several times found tracks on my property.
Lions are not endangered in this state -- they're actually rather common. Lions are a top predator. Lions can and will and do kill people and eat them. Most lions who kill people show typical behavior before they work up the nerve to attack someone:
They are active in daytime
They are seen by people and do not run when spotted
They come into areas heavily impacted by people
They may follow people
They may take livestock or pets from close proximity to human habitation
These lions are active during the day, they've been seen by people and do not run, they are active in Sabino Canyon which is about as busy as Central Park on a fine summer day, one has now been seen in a school parking lot, they've followed people (and Game and Fish found the tracks to prove that) and what next? Do we wait for someone to be killed?
My .02 is shoot the lions. There are other lions out there that aren't problem lions. Spending $$$ to tranq the lions and haul them out by chopper is spending $$$ that could be better spent on something else. Very expensive, especially compared to the cost of a team of dogs and a hunter. (Frankly, they could probably get a hunter and some hounds in there for free.) The reality of the matter is that this is not an endangered animal and there's plenty of wildlife out there that needs our help more.
I would sure hate to be munched by a lion while out hiking because somebody who wasn't real clear on the realities of life (we are prey, lions are predator, lions will eat you) wanted to keep the pretty kitties in the wilderness. I'm much happier to know that Game and Fish shoots problem lions when they start to lose their fear of us.
Leva(Who has pack goats and buys a lion tag every year just to prevent misunderstandings with Game and Fish if I have to shoot one to defend my stock.) |
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: 3/30/2004, 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well they are opening Sabino back up but are making people stay on the road and no bicycles. It is a real nice reprieve from the city and quick to get to. The stream is pretty and surrounding canyon walls are huge. I always get the $20/year pass and hike all over the many trails and desert terrain.
I flew over parts of the Catalinas today and much of them are just plain devestated by last years fire. No green at all, just blasted off moonscape. It is easy to see how many animals were displaced and will be for as long as we live. No place for sheep or any other big group of animals over much of the mountain range save a few small areas. Way to much has been destroyed.
I can easily see both sides of the issue and have nothing to offer other than observation.
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Leva
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Hidden Valley (Maricopa area) AZ
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| Posted: 3/30/2004, 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, you may be surprised at how quickly the wildlife comes back.
A good example is the 1992 Dude Burn -- if you're ever in the area and get the chance, take a morning or evening hike thru the burn. Follow a ridgeline so that your head is just below the level of top of the ridge, and watch the opposite hillside for wildlife. Alternately, drive the Control Road right at dawn, when it's just barely light enough to see.
I can almost flat guarantee you'll see deer, you're likely to see elk, and some of the biggest coyotes I've ever seen are not out of the question. Turkeys are often heard but not seen. Quail are everywhere, almost literally under every bush. You're not likely to actually see them, but there's plenty of sign for fox, raccoon, bobcat, lion, bear. Peregrine hunt the quail, as do redtail.
The animals don't miss the trees all that much; the manzanita and juniper that's replaced the trees is good forage and good cover. Fires are *good* for the environment, even big ones, but we humans have a sentimental attachment to trees ...
The trees are gone, perhaps for generations, but in a year or two the wildlife will be back.
Leva |
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k9hiker
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 390
Location: NW Phoenix
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| Posted: 4/2/2004, 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Game and Fish gets such a bad rap on this. They are totally damned if they do damned if they don't. They are never going to make all the people happy. If they don't take care of this in some way and some little child or hiker is snatched they are the bad guys because they did nothing. IF they shoot them, they are evil blood thirsty bastards. If they relocate to this private facility they are still going to be raked over the coals by the animal lovers. It's a no win for them.
Personally, I don't really see captivity as a reprieve. I would rather be dead than have life in prison.
It's a bummer situation for which the only the solution I can see is to educate people about the negative effect urban sprawl has on everything. No one is addressing the real issue of unchecked human encroachement. Maybe the Gov. should be spending time addressing this rather than poking her nose into the Game and Fish biz.
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Jamie
Canine Hiking Club of AZ
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This is good news but I wonder what they will do with these cats that they tranquillize
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