Rattlesnake Ramblings from Arizonaheat

[CatValet]

Aw shucks, and I thought he was so smart talkin' bout thet thar Goatenary Period.

Shooting a snake is rarely warranted. You rarely can get off a shot that stops a bite. The shot is usually either premature and unnecessary , or too late and just revenge. They die real hard. In the early seventies a guy in southern Az died after he shot a rattler with a .22 and then picked it up. Oops, not quite dead.... He was elderly and ran over a mile to medical care. Picking up a just shot snake is about as smart as poking a just shot grizz.

I did shoot one once. It was raising its head to strike, which was probably justified, since I had just stepped in the middle of his back. I don't know who was more scared, me or my friend Jim who was about 12" to the right of the head. I nailed him twice, once in the head and once in the mid section (the snake, not Jim). That was during my "gunfighter period" and for those into the hardware, I was carrying a Ruger Blackhawk .357 in a tied down Hunter speed rig. The first two rounds were "snake shot" which makes it hard to miss. It was about 60 degrees out and we were on the east side of the Huachucas at about 6,000 feet, and that snake was completed blended in to the oak leaves on the trail. I have no idea what he was doing out in such weather; if it was warmer he would been faster and would have nailed me for sure. We ate him, but the shots ruined the hide. Don't know what was more comforting that day, my revolver, or the Depends....


A Sawyer may not help that much, but it sure can't hurt. I'm not sure about Cro-Fab, but the old Wyeth horse serum stuff is real scary. A large percentage of people are seriously allergic to it, and that results in anaphylatic shock; really not something you want to deal with on the trail. There are easier ways to get mouth to mouth, trust me....

The problem with many emergency medicine people is that they always think you should call 911. They rarely have good opinions about what to do when you are hours or even days from a trauma center. That's why I think all hikers should read (and re-read) the wilderness medicine books written by Tom Forgey, Eric Weiss and Buck Tilton. -R

[GTG]

whereveriroam, no need to appologize to me, I wasn't taking anything as an insult to my intelligence at all. Shoot, my intelligence is always at question around here. Just ask those so-called vandals around here that left the rock in my unlocked truck at First Water. After looking at my previous post, I think I maybe stated the facts a little strongly and hope you or no one else was offended. I read the article under your link about the Sawyer kit and I wonder about the Sawyer's actual credibility. Survival/Aboriginal teacher Cody Lundin will tell you he's personally used it to extract venom from a scorpion sting site with good results. I however know no one that has used a Sawyer under snake bite circumstances. Maybe someday it will be considered in the same group as the old school snake bite kits from Hooli's days.


I also found this as an interesting note for snake bite as well.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000031.htm

GTG
_________________
Good things come to those who walk.

[Suzaz]

Thanks for posting and discussing this snake bite issue. It certainly has been fuel for a good debate.

I've been reading along and haven't been offended but have seen the various perspectives/opinions that you've shared. I'm not likely to be the one sticking around to take pictures, hunting it down and shooting it, or collecting research data.....but I did want the current info.

If the need should arise, I think for me personally I'm going to take the approach to avoid the kits and seek the "cocktail"/medical attention as soon as possible. (not to be confused with Tom's camping cocktails)

I also believe that I will pay more attention to when/where Harley and I wander off trail for bathroom breaks.

So now ................if I get bitten, you all know my wishes. (PS---I have medical coverage so go for the gusto with that cocktail and the helicopter)

[GTG]

[Hikngrl]

[Davis2001R6]

Has anyone on this site actually been bitten by a rattlesnake? If so what did you do, how far into a hike were you? My worst fear is getting bit by a snake on hike like the ridgleline or maybe something in the four peaks territory area where your hours to just getting back to the trailhead.

[Guest]

I am 69 and we ran into a couple rattlers on the Terrapin trail last Tuesday. We were several hours from any medical help. 5 hours from the trailhead and 6 hours from the loop end. We have cell phones but they do not work where we were.

What is the procedure we should use if bitten by a rattler? We have a Sawyer kit. I am worried about the time element as professional medical attention could be several hours away.

input and ideas?

Roger Dickey

[CatValet]

Roger: I'd use the Sawyer, fast. Some may question its effectiveness, but I know no other method for real wi;derness situations. As I alluded to in an above post, many "first aid experts" assume you are within hours if not minutes of help. I take my advice from those who know what it means to be hours if not days from help==like Dr. Thomas Forgey.

[azhiker96]

Roger, I wouldn't waste time with the Sawyer unless you decide to sit down and wait for help to arrive. The report says it removed a clinically insignificant amount of toxin. Now I'd agree that any poison removed is better than no poison removed but how much time is spent to remove it? If you spend 20 minutes to maybe remove 5% of the poison, I think that's time better spent getting to medical treatment. Extractors are probably fine for bee, wasp, and scorpion stings where the poison is in the epidermis.

Other options would be to send a fit member of your hiking party to the top of a mountain to see if they can get a cell signal. Or you could send them jogging ahead so they can call from the trailhead. A Lifeflight helicopter ride would get you to medical treatment much quicker than winding down that long dirt road to the Peralta TH.

I've seen Diamonbacks, Blacktaileds, one Mohave and two South Mountain Speckled Rattlesnakes. Only one, a large Mohave, was aggressive but I had surprised him on the Terrapin trail early one morning. No snakes were injured in any of the encounters.

[Nighthiker]

Anyone think they would actuually get a medical chopper for a snake bite ? Before they will respond, some emergency unit must be on scene.

[azhiker96]

You might be right, they might not send a chopper for a snakebite. I guess that would be up to whichever department responds to the 911 call. You've got to make that call though before anything would happen.

[ghoster]

If you are curious as to the medical situation regarding snake bites, the discovery animal planet has a show called Venom ER, it is on Monday nights. It features an expert in snake bite and actual video of snake bite victims, their treatment, and their survival. Plus giving lots of great advice on what to do when bitten, the progress of the venom, etc. It actually scared me to watch this, especially the older patients. Makes it worth while to avoid bites in the first place. THey even had one person that was trying to pick the snake up, and got bitten! Duh!!!
They say that is the cause of 80% of bites. SO don't pick them up, leave them alone, and you elimnate about 80% of problems. Great information, but scary reality. ANti-venom is not a guarantee of survival. LIke the good doctor says, "time is tissue".

[evenstar]

Rocky the Wonder Dog and Rich the Wonder 'senji are scheduled for snakeproofing on the 24th! Most of the time, these two are right out front on hikes and would be the first ones to run into a buzz worm; want no part of that and, after the snakeproofing, they may be our early warning systems.
_________________
John Richardson and Richie Rich, El Perro de Playero
http://members.tripod.com/~evenstar/index.html
http://www.arizonahikers.com
When the Man waked up he said, "What is Wild Dog doing here?" And the Woman said, "His name is not Wild Dog anymore, but the First Friend, because he will be our friend for always and always and always. Take him with you when you go hunting."
--Rudyard Kipling, from Just So Stories, 1902

[azhiker96]

Good idea! I'm glad you're following up to make sure your canine hiking companions are protected.

Here's a better answer to the helicopter flight question, taken from this article in the Republic.

http://www.azcentral.com/health/kids/articles/0322snakes23-ON.html

On Saturday, a 1-year-old child was bitten by a rattlesnake while a family was on a picnic near the Burnt Corral Campground at Apache Lake, authorities said.

The toddler was flown to Phoenix Children's Hospital and was in stable condition, said Maricopa County sheriff's Sgt. Paul Chagolla.

Kevin Perry, 49, was fishing when he heard the child's father screaming for help. Perry said he drove the toddler and the father to an area where a medical helicopter could land.

The child "was bleeding profusely," Perry said. "We did the best we could ... It was scary."

[whereveriroam]

What happens to the rattlers during a cool period like the one we've been having since the end of last week? Do they go back to hibernation for a few days?