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Arizonaheat
Got Supes Juice?
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 1741
Location: Mesa, AZ
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 Posted: 6/28/2004, 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Glen, that photo is priceless. Thanks for sharing it
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Our lives are not determined by what happens to us but by how we react to what happens, not by what life brings to us, but by the attitude we bring to life. |
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JW
I'll make rain with my spaceman powers!
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: 6/28/2004, 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BoyNhisDog wrote: |
Kent's words are wise. The problem is simply mankind. 500 years ago this continent was totally Stone Age. It was pristine, so full of animals it was incredible and everywhere was climax forest.
There have been many mass extinctions on this planet and there will be more. Call it what you will, judgment day, the natural way or whatever. Nature, this world, will find its own balance in it's own time.
I think I am going to go hiking. :mrgreen: |
Glen, I was trying to stay out, but your's was such a darn good post I had to say so.
It might have been Ed. O. Wilson's "The Diversity of Species" that started me thinking about the magnitude of the current mass extinction. The biggest yet, and completely caused by human activities and their side-effects.
Yes, this world will regain it's own balance in it's own time. As far as the politics, none of this will matter in a 1,000 years. But sadly, it will be many orders of magitude longer than that before this world can regain it's balance.
I think I'm going to go hiking, too. |
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Shihiyea
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: 6/28/2004, 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| BoyNhisDog wrote: |
Kent’s words are wise. The problem is simply mankind. 500 years ago this continent was totally Stone Age. It was pristine, so full of animals it was incredible and everywhere was climax forest. Most of the animals were killed off by the mid 1800s and the entire continent was logged early on as well. Now that we have millions of people here who all use wood, steel, copper and oil whether it be directly or indirectly and in most cases both (that includes everyone here), the issue has morphed into something that has its own inertia.
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I'm reading a book right now, "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight: Waking up to Personal and Global Transformation" by Thom Hartmann.
It is a book that is so realistic, and although my needs and my children's needs are currently met, I know, generations from now, they will NOT be met because of the wasting of natural resources. I'm still trying VERY hard to hold my tongue because I know I could get a wild whirl wind going, if I allowed it. I want so much to scream from roof tops and tell people to stop thinking ONLY of themselves and their own needs and think of our children's children. It saddens me  to see the selfishness and mentality, of "my needs are met" why should I think of others?
We some times lack a very valuable lesson in life, and that it to be of service to others. Our neighbors now, to generations from now. There is so much satisfaction and personal growth, one can have when serving others. We've manage to make species extinct and I think one of the important things that Daddee started in this thread, was that when they removed the wolf and reintroduced them to the wild, that the wilderness began to thrive again....establishing a balance. It takes no genius in the wilderness to KNOW that everything is interrealated and balanced....example, drop a pebble in a lake, it doesn't just drop....it ripples out reaching several things along it's way....All actions have a reaction.
Like Kent, I don't know what the anwsers are, but being self centered and selfish is NOT they way out of this. Limited resources have been known for years, yet, we do VERY little to address the future needs because, we have plenty now. If I knew how to post a pic, I would love to share a pic of my neice. She's wearing sun glasses, is blowing a raspberry and obivously has an attitude......she is a minature me, and I want her to see the places I've been. Maybe I don't do enough to change the way things are going. I'm in the social sciences and I try to do my part. I know if I learned more about enviromental science, I would be VERY scared! I am now! (BTW, I'm still holding my tongue).
Mary
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Courage affects what we are willing to do for ourselves as well as what we are willing to do for an other person.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 2815
Location: Mesa, AZ
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| Posted: 6/29/2004, 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| the magnitude of the current mass extinction. The biggest yet... |
Not quite - 252 million years ago, in the Permian-Triassic extinction event, about 95% of all marine species went extinct. This catastrophe was Earth's worst mass extinction, killing 53% of marine families, 84% of marine genera, and an estimated 70% of land species (including plants, insects, and vertebrate animals.)
We're going to have to do a lot more work to equal the natural catastrophies of past extinctions.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try to protect the environment, I'm just saying we're just a blink of an eye in the geologic time scale, and not nearly as destructive as other events - but we have the distinction of being sentient (a volcano or meteor isn't) and can choose to try and stop what we do.
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"Only small minds want always to be right."
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"...haven't you lived long enough to know that two men may honestly differ about a question and both be right?"
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Abe
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 436
Location: Prescott Valley
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| Posted: 7/14/2004, 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Shihiyea wrote: |
| It takes no genius in the wilderness to KNOW that everything is interrealated and balanced....example, drop a pebble in a lake, it doesn't just drop....it ripples out reaching several things along it's way....All actions have a reaction. [/img] |
DISCLOSURE: I AM NO DUTY EXPERT AND I HAVE NO ANSWERS.
However, as I was looking around the forum I stumbled on this post and thought I would check it out.
After reading it, I am about ready to go a hike. 
But I won't, instead, I'll add my two pennies.
The above quote struck a chord with me and I will highlight. I have been involved up here for many years, to include a stint, two terms, as a town councilmember. Some may be shocked to hear about it.  None the less, I done my time and thought I got shed of the public life. Until an organization was asking one of the councilmember if she knew of anyone who would be interested in joining as a board member. My name was brought up because of my stance, bickering, arguing, ect. on supporting and keeping open space in our area.
Well, to make a long story short, I am now a board member for the Highlands Center For Natural History, the mission statement is simple:
"The Highlands Center for Natural History helps children and adults discover the wonders of nature and become wise caretakers of the land."
I consider myself just a pebble. But then I do believe there are three kinds of folks in this world:
1. Those that make things happen.
2. Those that wait for things to happen.
3. And those that wish for things to happen.
Here's the site, http://www.highlandscenter.org/pages/frame.html |
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Shawn
I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!
Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 2592
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
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| Posted: 7/15/2004, 6:24 am Post subject: |
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"I have virtually no kind words to say about the forest service or BLM, but I have to admit that at least they're trying. "
These agencies, and all government agencies, are extensions of the elected officials. Neither have all that much independant agenda, they execute laws passed by the political branch. Note the FS's Roadless Area issue right now. One party instituted it, FS carried it out, now the other party changed it, FS is carrying it out.
My point is, the agencies catch a lot of blame and flack for doing their job.
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The bear went over the mountain to see what he could see. |
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Belinda
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Tempe, AZ
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| Posted: 7/20/2004, 8:48 pm Post subject: Talk the talk and Walk the walk baby |
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"I would like to see portions of this world where no roads or any messing with it are allowed. "
You need to go to Oregon |
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matt gilbert
Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 698
Location: Mesa
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| Posted: 7/20/2004, 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| sredfield wrote: |
"I have virtually no kind words to say about the forest service or BLM, but I have to admit that at least they're trying. "
These agencies, and all government agencies, are extensions of the elected officials. Neither have all that much independant agenda, they execute laws passed by the political branch. Note the FS's Roadless Area issue right now. One party instituted it, FS carried it out, now the other party changed it, FS is carrying it out.
My point is, the agencies catch a lot of blame and flack for doing their job. |
I wasn't exactly clear about that, but I didn't mean to criticize the agency on what they are enforcing, my primary criticism had to do with the administrations and the decisions they make (or don't make). The point was that at least we have agencies who's mission it is to protect our wild places, the problem is that sometimes the orders they are given contradict that purpose. You're right, the Roadless area issue is a perfect example.
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Cogito ergo ambulo cum sacculo
-Matt Gilbert |
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JW
I'll make rain with my spaceman powers!
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: 7/20/2004, 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Daddee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| the magnitude of the current mass extinction. The biggest yet... |
Not quite - 252 million years ago, in the Permian-Triassic extinction event, about 95% of all marine species went extinct. This catastrophe was Earth's worst mass extinction, killing 53% of marine families, 84% of marine genera, and an estimated 70% of land species (including plants, insects, and vertebrate animals.)
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I've got the numbers and I read the same journals/books (E.O.Wilson's "Diversity..."), etc. But that one ended after several millenium. This one is on-going and occuring in an eye-blink of geo-time, and accelerating, the bottom line will tell the tale, but we won't be here.
P.S. for those truly addicted to Science topics, isn't today the day that Hawkings presents his conjecture about dis-accreation at the event boundary of black holes at the symposium on relativity? |
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: 7/21/2004, 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Talk the talk and Walk the walk baby |
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| Belinda wrote: |
You need to go to Oregon |
Been there and the primitive wilderness in Idaho is good as well. There are places like that in Arizona deep in the vast deserts. There are places like that still left as of now but with the current expansion, will they remain? 500 years from Stone Age to space age, from untouched wilderness to a few tiny spots left with old growth in a place that has stood for millions and millions of years. I would like to see some big wild places always left where you walk in, float in, ride a horse in or don't go. No cattle, no man made roads, no ATVs, not anything that wasn't already naturally there, left and left into continuum.
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