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k9hiker





Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 390
Location: NW Phoenix

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 5:15 pm    Post subject: Trip Leader advice Reply to topic Reply with quote

To those that have lead groups into the wilderness, I have a scenario for you and I'd love your advice. Of course others can chime in too, I know we have an abundance of knowledge among this group.

Okay so here's what happend....

I started leading hikes for the City of Peoria a while back and last month we did a hike up the Bear Jaw Trail (8500 up to 10500) Between my co-leader and I, I had been on the trail previously so I took the lead, she took sweep. As soon as the trail began to climb the weaker hikers started to fall behind. One person was an elderly lady who had already told us she had asthma and while the mileage of the hike probably wouldn't be an issue she was concerned with altitude. No problem. The other person, a middle aged lady, I'll call her Fran, gave no indication that she was struggling or was not up to the challenge of the hike.

A little background before I proceed. The details of the hike are clearly listed in the description so people signing up do have knowledge of the elevation change, difficulty rating, terrain type and distance.

Okay so after our lunch break the group set off. Within a few minutes, as the trail became more steep, our senior decided she was done, she knew her limits and she was prepared to stay put until we came back. The other lady, Fran, was not ready to stop, despite my co-leaders urging.

Now here's the question, what does my co-leader do? She has two people who are very much at the back of the pack, the front group, along with myself has zoomed ahead not realizing this issue was happening. We did not carry 2 way radios at this time.

The decision was made to let our senior stay put and wait for us and Fran and my co-leader, fearing letting Fran proceed by herself would not be safe (she might wonder off the trail or something) carried on slowly, very slowly.

Ultimately, our senior hiker became too cold to sit and wait so she returned to the van in the parking lot by herself, ultimately giving us one lone hiker. Once my co-leader met up with the group, now returning, I tookt he sweep position and charge of Fran, who was still walking very very slowly. She really should have turned around long before becuase ultimately the rest of the group made it back to the parking lot almost an hour before she and I did.

I have been trying to figure what would have worked better. I have some thoughts and my co-leader and I are now carrying 2 way radios so we can keep up on what's happening at each end. I would like to hear suggestions from you bright folks on what you think should be the plan in this type of situation.

Thanks
Jamie D
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Wreckchaser





Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Willcox, AZ

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 6:01 pm    Post subject: Trip Leader Advice Reply to topic Reply with quote

Two way radios are a good idea for the leaders and for all of the members in the group, a better idea if possible. These radios are so small and inexpensive now, there is almost no reason to not have a pair. They don't always work for great distances in deep wooded canyons, but they are better than shouting. A GPS and a map of the area for everyone is a good idea also, but not everyone wants to buy a GPS and learn how to use it.

It seems like hiking with a group and having someone lag behind is quite common, but my thoughts are that if someone stays behind and then trys to go back to the parking lot, there can be a problem if you have a trail with branches that go off in other directions. People do take wrong turns and end up some place other than where they wanted to go. I have been on a number of search and rescue missions with that exact senario.

I don't have a best answer for your problem, but my advice is to have everyone in the group try to help keep track of each other. I know this is hard when you have a group of people that may not know each other, but it can be done. The other method is to keep a leader in the back and one in the front, which you already seem to have this one working for you.

Good luck on your adventures and remember that if you do have to call 911 for help, The DPS air rescue helicopter uses the Lat/Long NAD84 datum. It helps to have your coordinates handy for the dispatcher and Arizona does not charge people that are lost and have to be rescued or have a medical emergency in the wilderness.
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Shawn
I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!




Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 2592
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Good reason to hike solo. Wink
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Tom Treks
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Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 3347

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Jamie,

You say that you're leading hikes for the City of Peoria. Is there a fee involved? Do the attendees sign any type of waiver? Unless I was on the City payroll, I'd require a waiver of some sort. Especially if I was donating my time. You never know what can happen.

Okay, here is my "perfect world" answer to your question. Radios would definitely help in a situation like that. When you're living the moment of the situation, sometimes it's hard to come up with a diplomatic and logical way to deal with it, but if I were the "sweep" in that case, I would have requested that "Fran" stay back with me and the other lady until the front group returned. Strength is in numbers. Now obviously, this would only work in an out-and-back trip unless there is injury involved, and the hiker(s) can't go on any longer.

Like I said, "perfect world". When you're dealing with friends, and friends of friends, these decisions can get tougher. Luckily I haven't had to make any drastic decisions, although, I can recall a few "interesting" moments where it came close.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

The local Sierra Club Chapter always carries two way radios for general public hikes. As much as that seems commical, it proves to be an excellent tools for hurding hikers. Myself, I will never lead a group hike of people I don't know. Been there, done that.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/8/2007, 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Shawn wrote:
Good reason to hike solo. Wink

That too!
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Wreckchaser





Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Willcox, AZ

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 6:31 am    Post subject: Leading People You Don't Know. Reply to topic Reply with quote

IGO wrote:
The local Sierra Club Chapter always carries two way radios for general public hikes. As much as that seems commical, it proves to be an excellent tools for hurding hikers. Myself, I will never lead a group hike of people I don't know. Been there, done that.


Seems like there are too many unknowns when you get a large group of people together, who may or may not be experienced hikers. Things like health conditions and experience levels of the group members all come into play. It is more responsiblilty than I would care to take on.

I have lead a few groups on some hikes, but we all knew each other in some way and looked out for each other also. We never had a problem and everyone had a good time.
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threedogz





Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 668
Location: Chandler

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I hike with the Sierra Club and one trip leader in particular seems to always have strong hikers that join his outings. I have never seen anyone lagging behind. I have never seen any two way radio in his hand either (perhaps it's in his backpack).

They also describe and rate the hike pretty accurately, maybe that is the key? I don't know. They also have waivers on the website and liabilty info. Its pretty clear, but I heard of an incident where someone hurt themselves and they are trying to sue the Sierra Club. I don't know what became of it.

In all honestly, it is hard to judge a persons ability to hike just meeting and talking to them. It's something you have to see out on the trails. And, if it's a public hiking group than the expectation would be to have some that are slower than others. The only thing you can really do is to recommend hikers who don't keep up to recommend them working themselves up with easier hikes to build the stamina and confidence and hopefully they will take it as advice and not criticism. After all, you are looking out for their safetly.

Maybe asking them some key questions prior to signing up via phone or email. Questions like, how often do you hike? What hike did you complete last? If you had to rate your strength as a hiker, what would you rate yourself as? You can use the letters that they use for the difficulty of the hike or you can use a number scale. Once you lead a few hikes, you may be seeing some of the same individuals and will know their strengths and weaknesses.
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Hnak





Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 1766
Location: Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

IGO wrote:
Myself, I will never lead a group hike of people I don't know. Been there, done that.


yea, I do remember that one....
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Davis2001R6





Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 5591
Location: Italy

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I choose not to lead hikes with people I don't know. I don't like being (or feeling) responsible for unknowns. I have set up plenty or trips in some remote and difficult places, but I'm very picky on who I open that hike up to or who to invite.

None of this helps you any, I think it would be very difficult to tell someone to turn around because you don't think it's safe for them (or the good of the group) to continue.

The good of the group doesn't always play a factor on normal hikes, but in the mountains if definitely can. Thats one thing I learned and had not thought of until I went to Mt. Rainier. If you have 2 groups of 4 people each on rope teams and one person needs to turn around, that leaves you with 7 people. You can't have that many on one rope, nor can you let someone return solo, so people will just have to turn around. Luckily no one was FORCED to turn around on our trip, but it does happen.

This sort of ties back to out "Epic" hike discussion from a few months ago. I think someone mentioned not having the "Epics" as the GHOTM's. Personally those are the ones I enjoy the most and I would hate to see that.
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desertgirl





Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 3350
Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

How about a system where you graduate to a harder hike ? Beginner 1st time hike is an moderate urban hike that has variety to allow the trip leader to assess performance & pace ...based on that you can get a good feel for individual.

What I have done this with a few hikers that I have taken on w/o prior experience sharing the trail with them: Combination of Piestawa peak with a fully loaded pack + something about 8 miles in South Mountain allowed me to develop confidence. That said ...there is always a certain element of unknown.

Not sure if this will work in you situation
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outside1





Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 366
Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Well it has been awhile since I have had to take on the responsibilities as a trip leader. Back in college, I was lucky enough to get paid to lead trips all over the U.S. That is the first catch that Tom did point out, if you are getting paid for the service then the participant is yours responsibility and you are legally liable for their safety. OK then cutting to the chase here, the next key part is having a “lead” hiker and a “sweeper”. It is crucial that these two hikers (leaders) have a clear understanding of what each other is going to do when a situation comes up. How the “sweeper” will deal with an injured or unwilling hiker is not something you want to decide on the trail. There should be some set guidelines. For example, we would have set points and/or times to make contact. If the “leader” did not see or hear from the sweeper every (2 hours) then they would turn around (and everyone in the group) until they made contact with the sweeper. Keep in mind, I am only giving example times and things are different for each hike and type (backpacking could be every 4 hours). This “policy” was not a secret to the participant s as we would make sure to discuss some of the basics before each hike started (and some of the details were printed along with the waivers). The main point I am trying to make is to do your best to have a plan in place for some of the basic issues that might come up. I know there will always be exceptions and you will need to work them out as they happen, but with a base to work from you will find it much easier to deal with the exceptions. To be honest it really is a work in progress, as we lead more trips and worked with other leaders we would learn what and how they handled things and we could make decisions based on the “policies” and the understandings we gained from working with each other. So does this help? I think Tom may have already stated some of the above, but I wanted to elaborate a bit.

Also the radios are a great idea. W e never have that option 10+ years ago, but boy would it have helped.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Hnak wrote:
IGO wrote:
Myself, I will never lead a group hike of people I don't know. Been there, done that.


yea, I do remember that one....


11 dead wasn't it Hank? Razz
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Suz





Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 3186

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I've been the one that is swept before(no, I've never used Fran as an alias!) ............perhaps even been swept more than one time. I am appreciative of sweepers and leaders. I do try to cooperate as much as possible. I actually think I'm one of the lucky ones....I might have given up on hiking if it wasn't for some good sweepers.

If the hike is INTO a canyon I'm fine......even strong......gotta love those knees! Moving uphill and and out of a canyon can be a little slower going for me. The lungs seem to hold me back. It's not the legs, not the heart.....not the head. I've always been thankful for my personal one-on-one time with the sweeper and for their positive attitudes. Thankfully I've never run into a sweeper that is a grim reaper (ha a rhyme) telling me to turn back.....because I'm holding everyone else back. Can you imagine? In my previous experiences it has always been necessary to keep moving...the only way to get out is to keep hiking. I've even become best buds with one or two of those sweepers. Being swept has actually helped me to build a love for hiking and confidence in my abilities. Sweeping is a sacrifice. It can be a tough job and certainly not something most people can do successfully. I suspect it is harder to sweep than it is to lead.

Stuff happens.........all the time. Anything can happen to even the strongest of hikers.......as we have all read about.........being able to sacrifice your own personal speed record and stick with someone in need is a challenge. Perhaps even a bigger challenge than going fast. I know I've said.....OH MY HECK........I can't walk that slowly when I'm on a hike with a slow person........I'm not there yet.......I wouldn't be the best sweeper.....yet. Someday I'll get my chance to sweep or help another on the trail....and then I'll know that I am sincerely an accomplished hiker.

I remember my first backpack out of the Grand Canyon....Grandview........I was tired. Mike stayed right behind me..........laughed, encouraged, talked when I could spare the air.......and silently stayed with me. I think he pushed me the right direction once when I started to tip over. I sure hope I said thank you. That seems so long ago...wow....and I've grown a little since then....

SO LEADERS>..........when you are leading........what is your purpose? Why did you offer up your skills? Is it to share your passions?......................to spark something in others? or simply to get to the top?.................I suppose it depends upon the type of leader you are.

I'm also thinking it's better to be sweeping someone than to have some yeahwho that insists on busting ahead and gets off on the wrong direction. That can be more costly and time consuming than those requiring a sweep.

Strong leaders are few and far between. I am thankful for all that have helped me to build such a sweeeeet addiction Laughing

what was the question?

Radios are a good idea...........it's the one thing I say over an over again......why didn't we bring our radios?

11 dead Shocked Good golly thankfully I didn't know you then.........but Hank........are you still trying to kill people? Wink
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/9/2007, 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have a set of radios but have never hiked with anybody to try them out.
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