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Cholla





Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 379

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Thank you Joe. I'm leaning towards the Maptech topos, but still have a concern regarding compatability with the 60 CSx. This is based on driver updates and a thread I read in Maptech tech support. The last update in this thread is at the end of June. After that I can not find anything more specific.

http://www.maptech.com/support/forums/messages.cfm?threadid=2708&CFID=1301674&CFTOKEN=19688666

I'll contact Mapquest directly to see if the latest patch resolved the problems and if the new products out of the box work directly with the 60CSx.

I appreciate your pointers and it is all coming together slowly, but surely.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cholla wrote:
Joe - thank you for your help and advice. It's a bit of catch 22 on the learning curve. Until I figure out the most suitable map requirements and what to buy it will be hard to learn how to use a GPS.

I would like to do what you do with your GPS. I'm still a bit confused on what map to purchase for a Garmin GPS for hiking in Arizona. If the maps are propriatory and Garmin does not make 24K topo maps what do you use? I'd like to proactively chart a course and also be able to upload a completed trip back to my PC.

Next week I'll go to the GPS intro class at REI. I notice that MapSource maps are sold on microSD cards. Any advantage or disadvantage in your opinion?

Thanks again for any pointers. Smile


The Mapsource programs are great for just what you want to do. You open a full map graphic on your PC, draw out a track you think you'd like to follow then upload it to your GPS. In the GPS window, the map is pretty difficult to follow but the track you drawn at home is dead on. Just stick to your track. When you get home, the track you've actually walked will dispay almost perfectly on the full screen map graphic on your desktop. Proactive is exactly what these things do.
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"Surely all God's people, however serious or savage, great or small, like to play. Whales and elephants, dancing, humming gnats, and invisibly small mischievous microbes - all are warm with divine radium and must have lots of fun in them." John Muir
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yeah Ken. A track from my Garmin layed out on the Delorme would be the greasest representation. I've got to try this.
Cholla, this is what a walk I've already done (a track) looks like after the hike when I've downloaded it back to my PC. This is the Mt. Charleston Loop here in Vegas. Keep in mind I can zoom way in or way out. The tags are Waypoints I entered while on the trail for places I wanted to remember or be able to go straigtht to again at some other date or made note about a particular photo vantage point I used....water...great campsite or whatever.

_________________
"Surely all God's people, however serious or savage, great or small, like to play. Whales and elephants, dancing, humming gnats, and invisibly small mischievous microbes - all are warm with divine radium and must have lots of fun in them." John Muir
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

60CSx
Best GPS on the planet.
_________________
"Surely all God's people, however serious or savage, great or small, like to play. Whales and elephants, dancing, humming gnats, and invisibly small mischievous microbes - all are warm with divine radium and must have lots of fun in them." John Muir
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gpsjoe





Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cholla

Maptech posted version 7.03a in July 2006 after all the messages you read. I believe they fixed all 60CSX issues with this update.

See http://www.maptech.com/support/doc.cfm?docid=153&plid=30&CFID=1775&CFTOKEN=98359703
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Cholla





Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 379

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Oops. Thanks Joe. I must have been reading to fast. frying pan I'm going to order the AZ map as my first map.
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gpsjoe





Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cholla

Also you may find that you can pre-map to your satisfaction using only Mapsource topo as IGO suggests. I found that sometimes I could and sometime I couldn't.

The 100K topos are fairly gross and contain some errors in locations of points of interest. The entire US fits on three CDs, Western, Eastern and Alaska/Hawaii.

The 24 K topos for Arizona alone is on 9 CDs so the entire US has probably between 4 and 5 hundred CDs.

Anyway you could delay your purchase of the Maptech product until you work with Mapsource topo for a while or just buy Arizona if you want for about $100 if you don't mind risking that.
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Cholla





Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 379

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Igo, you've hit the nail on the head. This is one of the things I would like to do with GPS mapping. Thank you for posting this map. I can see that this is going to add a new dimension to backpacking. It will definetly help me to identify some photos that are taken a bit quickly at times. I can't wait to get up to speed.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yes. When I suggest pre-mapping in MapSource that is to say that the few times I've done it I'd place a waypoint in an area that seems to be a saddle then another one that looks to be the best bet for a ridge line. I've done no more than place 6 or 7 waypoints as beacons to a basic route that looks interesting. There is certainly no precision with this large a scale map. Still, I've only done that with having the aid of a better scale map open in anonther window. I just downloaded the freeware so I should be able to avoid this extra step from here on.
On the other hand, Garmins Western National Parks software is 1: 24,000/7.5 and is of excellent detail. Joe, have you looked at that? GREAT for the Grand Canyon. If this thread is warm in the morning, I'll put up an example.
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"Surely all God's people, however serious or savage, great or small, like to play. Whales and elephants, dancing, humming gnats, and invisibly small mischievous microbes - all are warm with divine radium and must have lots of fun in them." John Muir
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gpsjoe





Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: 1/5/2007, 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

IGO, I am aware of Garmins 24K National Parks products but have never used them. One reservation I have about them is that National Park trails tend to be well defined, well maintained and well signed. GPS is hardly necessary under these conditions. But I know that is not entirely true for you aggressive GC hikers who pursue the less traveled sections of the canyon that are very rugged and not so neat as the popular trails. So for the aggressive canyon hiker the Garmin 24Ks might be just the right number.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 1/6/2007, 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I enjoy your reads about GPS. I've much to learn yet.
_________________
"Surely all God's people, however serious or savage, great or small, like to play. Whales and elephants, dancing, humming gnats, and invisibly small mischievous microbes - all are warm with divine radium and must have lots of fun in them." John Muir
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Cholla





Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 379

PostPosted: 1/6/2007, 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

IGO wrote:
I enjoy your reads about GPS. I've much to learn yet.


Ditto. Igo, you have also been very helpful and I appreciate your advice and input as well. Right now I have everything to learn. Very Happy

Well, there comes a point you just have to make an executive decision. Laughing I went back down to REI this morning and bought the NG Weekend Explorer Phoenix Area. It is 24K and covers from Wupatki Nat'l Mon south just past Casa Grande and east from the Prescott Nat'l Forest through the Salt River Canyon Wilderness. This should be a good start for a newbie.

After that I'll probably add the Maptech Arizona map. Anyway, now it's time to have some hands on fun. Thank you for helping me get started.
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windymesa





Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 76
Location: Peoria, Arizona

PostPosted: 1/26/2007, 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

The Garmin MapSource data is most excellant... the contours are generalized, but there are too many contours on a 1:24,000 scale map anyways... they are adequate to give you the lay of the land. The other map features in MapSource are just as good as the 1:24,000 in detail right down to the trails. I work GIS on the SW fire teams, and our field folks use the Garmin MapSource data exclusively for base data. In the field, they record fire related data in the form of waypoints and tracks in their Garmin's, and we download this data for input onto our fire planning/info/field hard copy maps. We couldn't fight fire without them anymore. Smile
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gpsjoe





Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: 1/26/2007, 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I am delighted to have a pro in the field respond here. I agree with some of the things you said and disagree with others.

I agree that when your people in the field bring back waypoints and tracks recorded on their Garmins that these are the most accurate representations of the subject matter available. Far more accurate than any current maps be they 24K or 100K.

I donít believe that Garmin mapsource data or any 100K map is most excellent. The location of trails seems to be about the same on the 100Ks as on the 24Ks and both are wrong (or not current) in plenty of cases.

When it comes to location of mountain peaks and lookout towers and other points of interest, the 100K maps have some SUPER GROSS ERRORS and I say that with certainty as I have discovered several of these as I have tried to navigate to them using the 100K maps and I now rely on the 24Ks where there is indeed more accurate location information.

Here is just one example. Look at where the promontory Butte lookout tower is located on the 100K Garmin map and look at where it truly is located about 3/4ths mile away.

Here is the 100K map with our hiking track on it indicating the true location of trails as well.


Here is the correct location of that tower as shown on the 24K map


I could show more examples. The 100K map shows Granite mountain peak at 7,295 feet. Problem is that is not the peak and the real peak is far away from that at around 7,630 feet (and this is documented in the National Geodetic Survey). These errors are in Magellans 100K maps as well.

There is a website called peakbaggers.com that was also carrying that peak incorrectly at 7,295 feet and that has been corrected as a result of an exchange of emails I had with them. The 24K map has Granite Mountain peak correctly located.

Somebody goofed in the preparation of the 100K maps and passed these errors around to lots of companies. They may be easier to look at than the 24K maps but they do have some gross inaccuracies.
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windymesa





Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 76
Location: Peoria, Arizona

PostPosted: 1/29/2007, 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

gpsjoe: some really deep thoughts in this one... avoid this message unless you've been drinking heavily... or if you care Wink .

In our digital mapping world... we have: 1.) raster maps... scans of the USGS quad paper maps (i.e. USGS 1:100,00 and 1:24,000 scale maps like TOPO or National Geographic), 2.) and we have digital hybrid maps (derived from digital data from multiple sources within the same map!, which can be referred to as 1:100,000 scale, or 1:24,000 scale, or whatever scale accuracy data if you like). Mapsource is not a 1:100,000 scale map... it is one of these hybrids with a variety of data sources.... some data like the mapsource contours are somewhere inbetween the 1:100,000 and 1:24,000 level of accuracy. Nothing is black and white anymore in digital mapping.

Remember the old days when USGS was our only producer of quad maps.. and they were paper. I suspect from looking at the Mapsource data and comparing to the USGS published 1:100,000 scale and the 1:24,000 scale map that the MapSource data is a composite of digital data from a variety of sources (as are other mapping programs not using scanned USGS Quads)... so you really can't say the MapSource data is equivalent to the 1:100,000 scale maps:

As you pointed out, the trail/road alignment of the MapSource data is as accurate as the 24,000 scale maps (except for more recent realignment of the trails or poor original compilation of the 1:24,000), and except for the lookout you pointed out, the other point data is as accurate as the 1:24,000.

Without knowing where they got thier data (probably a trade secret), I would say the contour data is vector data derived from what is called a raster digital elevation model, and not taken (digitized) directly from the original USGS 1:100,000 hard copy maps... the contour interval is greater than that on USGS 1:100,000 scale map, yet not as dense as on a 1:24,000 scale map. The give away is that the labels on the contour are not rounded (i.e.7218 contour?.. whats with that?)... which they could have been. With standard GIS software, I or anyone can and do produce a contour map of any desired contour interval with these digital elevation models.. some of which, are more accurate (i.e. 10 meter dem v.s. 30 meter dem).

The point data is probably derived from the USGS "geonames" digital data base, and errors in point location can result rom mistakes in capturing these points from the original USGS hard copy maps.... or some bizarre digital database hickup. The lookout tower location is grossly in error.... more than the error you would even expect from a 1:100,000 scale USGS paper map (National Map Accuracy Standards require a feature be plotted within .02 mapping inches or 167 feet at the 1:100,000 scale, 90% of the time... the key here is 90% of the time). However, all maps contain errors like these, .... I have seen a USGS Map produced and printed without contour lines. And I have received orthophotos from USGS georeferenced to the wrong quad map coordinates.

The Census Bureau also put out a vector roads/trails layer in support of thier mission, with roads labeled (addresses so they can find you).... probably used as a starting point for most of your roads based software mapping packages (mapquest, 911, etc)... but the Census road alignments are not good .... they did a hurry up job of digitizing from the USGS 1:24,000 quads. Census Bureau is now updating thier road alignments (reason they flew aerial photos of Arizona last summer), and these will be updated with a year or two from "on screen digitizing" or perhaps some "feature recognition" software. I would venture to guess that the MapSource data used these Census Bureau alignments as well.... as the Census Bureau Tiger files have the trails!... and I do not know af any 1:24,000 vector data created by USGS, except the 1:24,000 drainage layer now almost complete for Arizona. My guess is that the streams you see in Mapsource, are USGS derived from 1:100,000 scale density.. but alas.. Wink when alignments are compard to the 1:24,000 USGS quads, they have the alignment accuracy of the 1:24,000 streams! Life in the mappping world is not so simple these days. When you compare Mapsource to the 1:24,000 USGS quad, you see this. The Census Bureau just got tired of USGS's slow response to create digital data, and took it into thier own hands, and didn't produce the high standard alignment that USGS would have produced.... if given 25 years to produce it Smile The errors you complain about are a result of other agencies preparing these substandard data sets in a digital data vaccum created by USGS's inabllity to move from the manual map production mode to the digital data production mode to support the demand from the other agencies and the public.. this vacuum being filled by other non-mapping agencies and private companies producing digital map data. Forced into the digital map production arean because of thier demand, they produce data inan envoronment of low or no map accuaracy standards.

Bottom line is, for us field observers on fire assignment: 1.) Mapsource is the best base map for the Garmin GPS units unless a better one comes along 2.) the Garmin GPSMAP76 is the preferred model for satellite reception, screen size, and glove compatible button sizes 3.) we carry the USGS Quads for the big picture (although badly out of date) and compare to the mapsource garmin data in the field... beleive it or not, Mapsource has stuff the 1:24,000 quads don't.. and vice versa (so you see... I have both maps in the field with me that you posted), and 4.) expect map errors... you never ever believe or put your life on the line because of what you see or don't see on a map.... it's only a "best guess" to reality.... always field check (field observe).

Have fun out there... and I think you would be a good field observer... get a red card and I'll order you up.

Dave Wink
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