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Lost Hikers found 13 miles off course on Mt Baldy?
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Daryl





Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1168
Location: Everett, Washington

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

My wife and I ran into a group of scouts last spring on the dutchman trail. A pack of the boys went way up ahead of the scout leaders and the rest of the troop. One of the troop leaders wasn't a frequent hiker and looked like he may have been having heat/health problems, which slowed the troop down while the other pack of boys kept running on ahead. We caught up with the boys that ran ahead (about a mile ahead at that point, out of yelling distance, the troop leaders were yelling for them) and told them they need to go back with the rest on their group. Had that troop needed to turn around and go back, the pack of boys would have been stranded.
We got to our turn around point and ran into them on the way back again as they were reassembling. I scolded the troop leaders pretty good about not staying together.

I wonder if this was the same troop?
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 2815
Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

Where's Daddee on this?

Just haning around. This topic isn't nearly as volatile as previous subjects concerning scouts. I'm a big defender of them - but this situation strikes me as fairly typical of teenagers. I've hiked with enough scouts to know that teenagers (despite possibly having knowledge and/or skill) can get lost really easily. It's not so much a question of knowing how to use a compass or orient yourself as it is a question of knowing when you need to use it.

Scouts get lost all the time. I went on a search and rescue for a scout that got lost on a compas orienteering course. Nice big reflectors nailed into trees all over the place.
Smart action: find a reflector and stay there.
Stupid action: wander around all night and wear yourself out of energy and get dehydrated and dissoriented.
Which do you think this 15 yr old (almost Eagle) scout did? I won't say he was a total moron (even though I think he was) - but he was darned scared and confused and all normal training and thinking just went right out the window. Took us 15 hrs to find that dude. A space of less than 1 square mile - he just kept wandering around and missing our patrols. Idiot. If he'd stayed in one place we would have located him inside of 2 hours.

Teenagers. I think those of us that are no longer that age have forgotten how clueless we were between the ages of 12 - 16 (prime scouting years). Some of them will be very disciplined and skilled, others will learn the skills - but be totally oblivious as to when to use the skills.

I put most of the blame for this on the leaders. There should indeed be more discipline from the top down. A leader in front - a leader pulling up the rear - never out of eyesight of the other. Teach the kids how to hike as a group.

Group cohesiveness on a hike is something that has to be worked on, and it is the hardest thing to do with a group of scouts.

13 miles is a bit extreme - but by far and a way not unusual. Unfortunate, but true. I've had scouts who have sliced their hand open while "whittling" a stick in the middle of a downpour (outside, with a poncho on) - how stupid is that? Well, it's apparently stupid enough for a 13 yr. old.

Of all the scenarios posited thus far I like Randy's the best, but here's another for consideration: The two that got lost considered themselves major hunks of studliness so they went way out ahead of everyone else thinking they'd get to the top first - not knowing the way and figuring they'd take a "short cut."

There are other former scouts and/or scoutmasters laughing right now (or crying - depending on the outcome of this very same situation they encountered).
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CatValet
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Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 735
Location: Scottsdale

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yup, they do die sometimes. There's a memorial sign on the Mt Wrightson summit trail down south in the Santa Ritas recalling the three scouts who died there from hypothermia way back, in the early 60s I think. The place where they died is on the leeward side, and the late fall monsoon snuck over the ridge and whupped them. Cotton- the fabric of death....I had a promise to myself that I'd never have to ring a doorbell and tell a mother her son wasn't coming home....I respect those who have to do such duty, but prefer to pass, myself.

This scout stuff makes me recall the kid in my troop who was caught red-handed, so to speak, while engaged in solo love making in his tent. All the others rolled on the ground laughing at his embarrassment. I lined them up and reminding them of the Scout Law, asked all who had NEVER done that to step forward. Just as I thought.....zip, zero, nada. I asked them all if they would enjoy being laughed at if they were the one caught. Nope. Kids can be cruel.
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Daryl





Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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Location: Everett, Washington

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

A question to those that are or have been involved in scouts. Do you have to take any classes or prove any qualificatons before becoming a troop leader? What is the process?
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CatValet
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PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Daryl- I'm not aware of any. Like many volunteer jobs, they are grateful to get anyone. I worked with two troops, and was never fingerprinted or had a criminal records check. I know that teachers are, but they are actually paid. In this era of issues with priest and teachers and others in supervisory capacity, that may have changed. Most volunteers are fathers of boys in the troop. I would advise those interested in their child joining a troop meet the adults involved. (Wouldn't hurt to go on a hike or trip and observe the interaction first hand. I would also be sure that the ratio of adults to kids is appropriate. One adult with 40 boys is not a good ratio. The troop I was involved with locally averaged about 6-8 adults on every overnight hike with about 40 boys. We had a DDS, a DVM, and two MDs, one of whom was a trauma team anesthesiologist who was absolutely the finest physician I have ever known. (The other was an OB/GYN who was very out of his element.) Of course the father who was an attorney had a bigger medical kit than any of us....

The one thing that's a plus is their insurance. I would rather go into the ER with a Scout Uniform on than a Blue Cross card tattooed on my chest. Participants are covered during, to and from an event. Having been involved with several (fortunately minor) traumas, the access to care we got for kids was first rate.
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sam_hikes





Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 383

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

CatValet wrote:

This scout stuff makes me recall the kid in my troop who was caught red-handed, so to speak, while engaged in solo love making in his tent.


SOLO LOVE MAKING, WHAT A PHRASE!
Silly

Eek

Embarassed
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Daddee wrote:
[ but this situation strikes me as fairly typical of teenagers. I've hiked with enough scouts to know that teenagers (despite possibly having knowledge and/or skill) can get lost really easily. It's not so much a question of knowing how to use a compass or orient yourself as it is a question of knowing when you need to use it.



Totally agree. The conditions were reported to be very marginal. I have been at altitude on some of these desert peaks when a bad monsoon hit and it is nothing like in the valley. Visability is not far. Teenagers do become confused easily. They do not assimilate information like adults do. I did not know that when I was 15 though lol.

I am reading an awesome outdoor classic right now called "Cache Lake Country". It won the National Outdoor Book Award. It is basically an outdoor soltice in a paradise found. Written in 1947, it deals with a place in the far north and talks of skills in detail. He goes into compass use and landmarks in the second chapter. That is how important that one skill is. Anyone can become turned around. Anyone can become very lost. I know, it can't happen to us can it? Shocked Yeah, it can happen to us. Surprised

Maybe in time some more details of what actually happened will come out.

Take care out there.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 8/4/2003, 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
A question to those that are or have been involved in scouts. Do you have to take any classes or prove any qualificatons before becoming a troop leader? What is the process?

To become a scoutmaster - no qualifications, no test. Just pay the fee and you're good to go.

However, the scout program does offer some outstanding training if you are willing to spend the time and effort. The cost is usually minimal (say - $400 for a week of training at a leadership camp - or $50 for a weekend training - or occasionally, free if you wait for the right opportunity).

Thier leadership training and youth program training are second to none in my book. Unfortunately it is only a select few that opt to take the training. Fortunately - those are the individuals who invest the most into the BSA and give substantial returns.
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Daryl





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Location: Everett, Washington

PostPosted: 8/5/2003, 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

It seems too easy to me. Not even a criminal background check? So the Scoutmaster could very well be a registered sex offender or could have been convicted of dealing drugs. It's a scary time to rely on people's honesty.

How hard would it be to give them a background check and a test?
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: 8/5/2003, 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

How hard would it be to give them a background check and a test?

Well, I was originally going to just respond from memory, but I did some research instead. I went to the Official BSA website to see what the criteria were. They referred me to my local council, the Grand Canyon Council. After looking over the site I see nothing disclosing anything about background checks or anything.

This fits with my memory. It is very difficult to give background checks to everyone since A) they are expensive in such large numbers, and B) the BSA is largely a locally run organization desperate for volunteers, and since the real administration (what little of it there is) takes place on a very small level, they are incapable of doing background checks. Anyone who is active enough will likely just be asked to become a leader. Of course, that is the kicker. The organization has to choose you to be a leader. It is unlikely you will become a leader if you are a major jerk or criminal. However, you are correct. A convicted felon could become a leader.

It is not, however, unusual for a leader or scout to become banned from scouting for inappropriate activities and or behavior. My personal testimony when I was a ranger at Philmont concerning one abusive father got him banned from the BSA for life (we found out later he had already been banned from the Girl Scouts for life - so he was really a nice guy apparently Rolling Eyes ). He wasn't technically a leader, he was just involved in scouts as a parent, and so was willing to go and support the troop as an adult (two are required for any activity).

So - you get some bad apples, but for the most part they are a self policing organization. And, in reality, most of the leaders are there because their kids are there. That sort of takes care of a lot of the problems as well. Most parents who are willing to do that sort of volunteer work are not bad sorts for the most part.

Bottom line - you're correct. Not much of a screening process. But it seems to not be a huge problem most of the time. Of course now you can begin the discussion of "if the system fails enough times then they will learn to put in a screening process." All we know for sure is that there isn't one right now.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 8/5/2003, 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Not that anyone asked - but I thought I would point out the official BSA ethos regarding the outdoors. You can read about it in the Leave No Trace guidelines.
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Daryl





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PostPosted: 8/6/2003, 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

losing 2 kids in the woods once is enough system failures for me. especially if they were my kids. I'd make them prove competence before sending them in the woods with my kids.

Also, you can have a criminal background check done over the internet for a pretty nominal fee. I'm sure most people wanting to take on a leadership role in the scouts would be willing to pay for it themselves.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 8/6/2003, 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

losing 2 kids in the woods once is enough system failures for me

I won't say you're wrong. But things DO happen once in a while that could easily be avoided if someone just obeyed the rules or paid attention. Drunk driving and a highly correlated death/injury count comes to mind. The system there suffers breakdown (counted as either deaths or injuries) all the time, despite very thorough laws and enfocement procedures (far in excess of anything the BSA has). (population count comparisons notwithstanding - although I'd bet that on a total populaiton percentage basis the number of lost scouts per year compared to the of DUI deaths/injuries probably would favor the BSA - that's just a guess though and I could easily be wrong)

This is a point that could be debated all day and in many forms. What we are talking about here is one case of two lost scouts. How many stories have you heard about in the last year of lost scouts? Compare that to the number of stories of lost hikers. Now look at dead scouts, then dead hikers.

Better yet, look for any stories of lost/injured/abused youth and if they were affiliated with any formal, organized youth group. People slip through the cracks all the time despite more or less robust filtering procedures. (Not to take a cheap shot, but the Catholic church has been put through the media and judicial wringer recently for abusive priests and they have MUCH higher standards than almost any organization - but some slipped through the cracks).

Are two lost scouts two too many? Yes. Is it the norm? No. From my experience it looks like it is the rare exception. If they were my kids - I'd first make sure that I knew the whole story. If it was the kid's fault - well, some intense education would be in order (and some punishment to boot). If it was the adult's fault, then I'd make sure they were not involved with anything my kids did again - and any appropriate punishment served.

Also - this whole debate is basically being conducted over a situation that we admittedly have very little information on. Hypotheticals and conjecture really aren't telling us much.

The BSA (to the best of my knowledge) does not do background checks at this time. They apparently have not found the need to yet. If enough people requested that they do it - they probably would, but again, apparently the demand is either non-existend or not enough to warrant attention at a national level.

Also keep in mind that each council of the BSA opperates autonomously and some of them may indeed conduct background checks. When you apply to the Grnad Canyon council you have to submit a bunch of personal information via their website or fax or by a form. They may do a background check - but they don't say they do, so who knows. (is it required by law to tell someone that you will perform a background check?)

Anyway - I like the BSA, so asking my opinion (which nobody really has Smile ) will result in my defending the organization. I've found that, despite flaws, the overall organization is a good one and worthy of my support.

How's that for a long-winded, rambling, barely coherent reply?
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sam_hikes





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PostPosted: 8/6/2003, 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I'm still waiting for "the rest of the story" to come out Question

Suspect the people involved with the rescue & investigation would have the facts by now?
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Daryl





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PostPosted: 8/6/2003, 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I don't think you need permission to do a background check since it is public record.

Basically, a scout troop is only as good as it's direct leadership. Since there is no system in place to verify the quality of a leader before granting the title, you can not assume the leadership is of acceptable quality just because it's the Boy Scouts.

In my opinion, this is a fatal flaw for the BSA. I should be able to have confidence that any troop of the BSA has competent leadership.
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