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GeorgAz
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 815 Location: Scottsdale
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Posted: 3/14/2003, 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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By the way,have any of you seen the Lake or the aerial view lately?? Still a sad thing by all accounts and all views,pro and con! |
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tempe8
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Tempe, AZ
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Posted: 3/15/2003, 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I should have jumped back onto the board sooner; there have been a lot of predictable responses since my last post. So where do I start? Oh yes Colin:
Safety from floods: we must separate our discussion between what's good for us and what's good for nature. I never said FS policy was good for forests. And I'll never say that dams are good for nature, they're good for us. To try and say that the creation of dams/dikes/canals does not provide safety is to deny over 2000 years of human history. Why? Because that's how long people living near great rivers have been building these things, trying to protect their villages and cities from the unpredictable rivers. Have these billions of people all been wrong over the ages? Has it only been recently that our enlightened environmentalists figured out the real solution? Maybe it's easier to figure out the correct answer when you can sip on a cool glass of water while relaxing in the purified waters of your hot tub.
Safety you question? One only has to look at the Chinese living in the Yangtze River valley and the untold 100's of thousands that have died over the course of history. As we speak they're building a dam to further their society. To them I say, more power to you; I hope you're successful.
Consistent electricity: Ok everyone, let's ignore the last 65 years of non-stop power generation from the Colorado river dams and let's focus instead on the small dam/reservoir to our east that had to stop generating briefly because of low water levels. First off, Roosevelt was never intended as a major power generating station, it's first priority was water storage and flood control. But regardless, mother nature is an unpredictable force (the last three years of drought have proven this) and gives further evidence of the wisdom of storing water to ride out the lows'.
Consistent water: Anyone that tries to debate the value of having a large storage of surplus water while reveling at living in the desert. I don't know what to say to them, logic evades them. Thanks to the numerous reservoirs created around metro Phoenix, even with three years of unprecedented drought, we have been able to provide ourselves with water. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, you cannot live in the desert and fight against water! I go back to my earlier statement, our existence here in the desert is because of massive water projects. What are the other options? Ground water? Sea water? I'm open for well thought out positions based on logic, facts, and reality.
Much more effective/efficient energy sources: I almost feel out of my seat when I read this one. Please, please, please, for the betterment of your fellow man, tell us of your secret energy sources that millions of engineers and scientists over the years have failed to discover. Why? Because cheap energy is the holy grail of civilization. To date, our brightest minds have only come up with: fossil fuels, nuclear, and hydroelectric as viable options.
Once again I'm interested in hearing others thoughtsas long as they're short on emotion and long on logic, facts, and reason. (That means "teleport to Mars" does not qualify in the arena of ideas).
By the way: anyone that's interested in a good read concerning this thread should take a look at this article on the Hoover Dam (and Lake Mead).
http://www.romanconcrete.com/HooverDam.htm |
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cactuscat
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 459 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: 3/16/2003, 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares what you're "interested in"? We'll post what we like! The more different viewpoints the better, and all ideas/comments are welcome. Unless someone made you the boss of this site?! |
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Shawn I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!
Joined: 03 Jan 2003 Posts: 2592 Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
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Posted: 3/16/2003, 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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.... _________________ The bear went over the mountain to see what he could see. |
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Shawn I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!
Joined: 03 Jan 2003 Posts: 2592 Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
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Posted: 3/16/2003, 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Less water would limit the growth here, would fewer people in the area be a bad thing? _________________ The bear went over the mountain to see what he could see. |
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ck1
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 1331 Location: Mesa
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Posted: 3/16/2003, 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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GeorgAz wrote: |
There's a book called "All My Rivers Are Gone" by Mary Lee, who was one of the first explorers and hikers in the Glen Canyon area ,along with two friends, a photographer and outdoorsman. It is an amazing book.Her descriptions of all the canyons and sacred places they found and named ,explored and almost lost their lives in, are so profound and touching.Goes right up to the porridge being built and watching as the canyon became inundated and lost forever. It is a beautiful poignant and sad account of a place that must have been indescribably beautiful and irreplaceable. It is available at most libraries. Brought tears to my eyes. |
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Another great read is The Riverkeeper by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. excellent information contained within. The main focus is the Hudson River Valley, but there are national issues addressed as well. _________________ -Colin
"The Journey is the Destination" |
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Daddee I once was a slug.
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 2815 Location: Mesa, AZ
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Posted: 3/17/2003, 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I think I like Kurthzone's approach to this whole thing....
Mmmmmm.....[insert item here]. _________________ "Only small minds want always to be right."
- Louis XIV
"...haven't you lived long enough to know that two men may honestly differ about a question and both be right?"
- Abraham Lincoln |
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tempe8
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Tempe, AZ
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Posted: 3/18/2003, 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I was just trying to shed some light on the other side of the lake debate as to why they should not be drained. I know it can be a contentious issue, but figured I'd probe the proponents to see what alternatives they had...though I already knew there were none.
I believe strongly in clean, renewable energy resources and I think at a time when American troops are going into battle in a region so pivotal to world energy needs, we need to be thankful for every bit of clean energy we can generate here, on our own. Hydroelectric provides 8% of US energy, nuclear 20%, fossil fuels 70%; the remaining 2% consists of "other". Until such time that "other" can compete economically in a free market, I see no reason to pursue the removal of hydroelectric dams.
In Arizona, it's more than an energy question though, it's about water for consumption and I don't see population growth abating any time soon. Yes, it wouldn't be a bad thing if there were fewer people here (I supported the growth boundaries proposition), but that's an even more widely debated (and heated) topic than the current one. With that I'll return to what everyone's really here for...hiking!
P.S. I drive a Honda Civic that gets 38mpg. |
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GTG Was lost but now am found
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 Posts: 2387 Location: Peoria, Arizona, originally from Rocket City, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2003, 7:08 am Post subject: text |
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Something is up with your text editor tempe8.
GTG _________________ Good things come to those who walk. |
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mike What box?
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 Posts: 3134
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Posted: 3/19/2003, 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I did a little investigating, Tempe8 are you using Microsnot Word to write your posts, then copying and pasting to the forum? That would cause the result your seeing. Word uses codes for special characters like the ampersand or apostrophe, and even though you don't see them when you paste the text, they're there. They show up after you submit. I'd suggest you either use Wordpad or Notepad instead. _________________ [/size] |
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mike t
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 175 Location: Gilbert, Az
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Posted: 3/19/2003, 11:49 am Post subject: |
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OK. Like Dadee, I wrote a couple responses, then stayed out. I can no longer resist. Sorry tempe8. You ask what alternatives the proponents suggest? I say, suffer. Do without. Cut back. Conserve. You site a figure of 8% for hydroelectric power. I submit a cutback of 8% is obtainable. Admittedly, that does nothing to assuage the effects of our fossil and nuclear usage. That is another discussion. You also site a "free market" stance for "other" forms of energy production. Since when have the oil companies been subject to a free market system? If they were not subsidized, and we paid the true cost of fuel, we would have seen alternative energy sources emerge far sooner. As it is we are just beginning to see hybrid vehicles and solar panel use for some small public uses. If some of these other resources received a real backing from our government (and by default, we the public at large) we might be enjoying more affordable alternative energies already. As far as water for a growing population, the dam is the cause of that problem as well. If it weren't there, neither would the water be, and neither would the people have come. Just because something is there, and has been for a long time, doesn't make it right. Just ask the people of the world living under oppressive dictatorships where these kinds of open discussions wouldn't happen.
That said, I agree that the dam isn't going anywhere. The population isn't going anywhere. Energy consumption in this country isn't likely to decrease in a meaningful way any time soon if at all. We will continue to pollute our air, water, and soil with the byproducts and wastes of our consumable lifestyles. The general population will continue to pollute, consume, and expand. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and it doesn't make it wrong to call a spade a spade. Doing the right thing might be painful, but thats just the way it is sometimes.
So, when you ask what alternatives the proponents suggest....I suggest "do the right thing." _________________ Mike T
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Daddee I once was a slug.
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 2815 Location: Mesa, AZ
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Posted: 3/19/2003, 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
But that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and it doesn't make it wrong to call a spade a spade. |
That was kind of my point at the beginning. Current economics, demographics and politics pretty much ensure that it will stay there - rightness or wrongness notwithstanding. Voicing your opinion on whether it should be there or not is your choice and constitutionally protected right.
I will also agree with something Tempe8 said earlier. I enjoy hearing the well thought out and reasonable (meaning the use of reason and logic, not "reasonable because I said so") arguments for both sides. Emotional and esthetic arguments can cloud the issue at times. But, for me at least, that is the thing that will sway me one way or the other - reason and logic. Emotion plays an initial role in forming my opinions, but if I hear a well reasoned argument that effectively refutes my initial opinion, I am more than likely to change my mind. Other contrary emotional reactions do little but make my initial reaction stronger.
I think there have been some good responses in this argument. I've enjoyed the banter. _________________ "Only small minds want always to be right."
- Louis XIV
"...haven't you lived long enough to know that two men may honestly differ about a question and both be right?"
- Abraham Lincoln |
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maryphyl Grand Canyon Enchantress
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 669 Location: Flagstaff
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Posted: 3/21/2003, 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing lasts forever. A decision was made rightly or wrongly a long time ago to build the dam. I am not willing to take it down now. It provides lots of jobs and power and water. _________________ Shikekeh hozhoogo naasha.
I walk in beauty. |
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GeorgAz
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 815 Location: Scottsdale
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Posted: 3/22/2003, 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate all sides of this can of worms and the powers that be will eventually do whatever they will about the situation;or Mother Nature will take care of it in her own way. We will eventually pollute ourselves out of existence and use all our resources.Population growth,progress and money always seem to win out,even though a lot of us don't agree with those policies.Life will go on,one way or another. |
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tempe8
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Tempe, AZ
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Posted: 3/22/2003, 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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There's been some good discussions going on here recently and I think we're getting to the heart of the matter...over consumption and how that affects energy policy. Everything we eat, do, make, buy, sell, has a an energy cost associated with it, and we're all bombarded daily to do more and get more of the above, which feeds the energy need. The US energy consumption is a summation of all our individual activities: from the office lights/computers we leave on when no one's around to the SUV's idling with the AC in the parking lot while a passenger goes in the store to shop.
Mike_T makes a good point..."can't we just reduce consumption by 8%". Recently there's been quite a few authors coming out with "Simple Living" books that try to address this. They're variously targeted at getting off the materialism treadmill and living a 'simpler' life free from the rat race and consumer debt. While they have financial overtones on the surface, the undertones are certainly environmental as well.
Even with an 8% reduction, I'd respectfully disagree and say that I'd still rather have my energy coming from a clean hydro plant with no emissions than a coal/pertrolium fired generator any day...so I'd still vote to keep the dams. But like many on here have already noted...we can all make better decisions. |
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