C'mon guys!

ck1 · Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 1331 Location: Mesa

Sorry...I wrote my post before Mike called on us all to get along...please disregard...
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-Colin

"The Journey is the Destination"

mike · What box? Joined: 30 Dec 2002 Posts: 3134

fairweather8588 · Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 716

If you guys would like to have discussions on politics etc in a semi-outdoors enviroment then join summitpost.com their prate&prattle board is quite fun
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But let the mind beware, that though the flesh be bugged, the circumstances of existence are pretty glorious

Kerouac

Davis2001R6 · Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 5591 Location: Italy

Did anybody here that the US is going to annex Canada? Laughing

sorry inside joke there.

AZBrad123 · Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 196

Don;t get me started tim, i promised i would keep my mouth shut!!!

D@mn you Tim!! I did not know they had internet in Chicago!!

Davis2001R6 · Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 5591 Location: Italy

I couldn't resist! This topic would have been a good one for Marissa. I can see the pages being typed now.

cactuscat · Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 459 Location: Phoenix

Daryl · Posted: 6/29/2004, 11:19 am Post subject:

1. How dare a political discussion come up when I'm not around, now I have to catch up!

2. Who cares about bad spelling. I'm a bad speller and I assure you it says nothing about my intelligence or lack of respect towards my readers. This is a internet forum, not corporate email. Who cares about spelling.

3. Mr. Moore is making a lot of money off this movie. That was his intention, mission accomplished. He's laughing all the way to the bank. If he really cared about the cause he'd run for an office and would probably do well. He won't because that would mean people would get to question his decisions and he wouldn't make as much money.

4. Since we had no reason to go into Iraq, maybe we should just let Saddam free. Who want's to rent a room to him while he gets back on his feet? Do we have to pull up the quotes from both Clinton's, Kerry, and just about everyone else in the world that says he's a bad man, has WMD, want's to use them, and should be taken out of power? Were they all lying evil morons too? Also, remeber the suicide bomings in Israel that were happening weekly before Sharon got really mad? Saddam was giving the families of the suicide bombers large sums of money as a thank you. He is not a nice guy, he supports terroism, he needed to be removed. Most people that live in Iraq would agree.

5. Please get off the stealing the election kick. Never did anyone count the votes and say Gore won. Dispite multiple re-counts Bush won fair and square. It was Gore that tried to steal the election in the court system.
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jmzblond · Posted: 6/29/2004, 11:36 am Post subject:

Whole-heartedly agree on ALL points expressed, Daryl. Very well done

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Blond, James Blond... double "O", uh oh!!

"The romantic lifestyle of goats leaves a lot of time for digesting books" Charlotte La Chevre, (taken from "Conversations With A Goat" by Robert Shekter)

Daryl · Posted: 6/29/2004, 11:41 am Post subject:

Oh yeah, and Bush used Regan's military that Clinton downsized, not Clinton's military.
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jmzblond · Posted: 6/29/2004, 11:46 am Post subject:

Finally someone I can agree with...
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Blond, James Blond... double "O", uh oh!!

"The romantic lifestyle of goats leaves a lot of time for digesting books" Charlotte La Chevre, (taken from "Conversations With A Goat" by Robert Shekter)

Tom Treks · Gear Addict Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 3347

ck1 · Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 1331 Location: Mesa

I still say that spelling counts. It was still Clinton's military, there was another Bush between Reagan and Clinton, and besides it was downsized and still very effective. And yes, Saddam's removal was a good thing, it still doesn't alter the fact that the reasons stated for doing so were not accurate. Does the end justify the means...maybe...
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-Colin

"The Journey is the Destination"

BoyNhisDog · Posted: 6/29/2004, 12:34 pm Post subject:

Daddee · Posted: 6/29/2004, 12:36 pm Post subject:

Ah, all of you just crack me up. And I'm not talking about laughing - I'm talking about insanity.

And now, to go against my better judgement, a post:

WARNING: Long Rant to follow.

Going back to the source of this thread:

We have people that care about these issues (the war in Iraq and/or war on terrorism, President Bush, President Bush’s policies, elections, taxes, take your pick), and Michael Moore is a genius for tapping into it. It has generated its own buzz just by virtue of looking at an issue that people care about. The same thing happened with "The Passion of Christ" - people loved it, people hated it - but it generated buzz and conversation because people cared about the subject. Michael Moore has stirred national debate, and some say that’s a good thing, and I’m not particularly opposed to it myself.

However, my problem isn’t with the issues raised by Moore, my problem is with methodology. His methods really haven’t served to stir debate, His methods have only inflamed the debate – not educated it. They have served to stir the believers from both sides. He has chosen the most highly charged topic of today and used the most annoying and inflammatory methods to generate his arguments.

There are just as many arguments from both sides - and for every argument that someone brings up that says "Bush lied!" somebody else can bring up another that says "No he didn't!" For every person that says we went to the war illegally, someone else can give an argument that interprets the same information to say that’s not the case. For every person that says "Bush is a moron" you can find people that will refute that. For everyone that has evidence of something, somebody else can find evidence to the contrary.

Facts are tricky things. You can create different perceptions by showing certain facts and by failing to show other facts. You can also show "facts" that are conjecture and "connecting the dots." Facts can also be mere perception or opinion - and there is seldom a good way of separating them out into their constituent parts.

What we have here is a group of believers. Politics is nothing more than a type of religion. And polarizing issues in politics have the same overall effect as polarizing issues in religion. If you're talking about a polarizing issue, feelings get riled up and all rational discussion goes out the window. You're attacking a core value and the defenses are up - nobody from one side is listening to the other side, it just becomes a shouting match – who can come up with the most facts? Who can come up with the most support? That's why they're polarizing issues - people that care gravitate to extreme ends of the spectrum.

Certain pieces of evidence can be interpreted by either side to mean completely different things. Other pieces of evidence are ignored by one side or the other because it doesn't help their cause. And in the end neither side is convinced of anything but their previously held opinion.

The discussion is nice, presenting your point of view is great, but I guarantee you that NOBODY that read this series of posts was swayed one way or the other from their original position.

Go ahead - if I'm wrong and somebody has changed their minds about anything mentioned in this thread, please speak up.

[crickets...]

Heaven knows that I love a good argument as much as the next person (as Colin will testify...). But this issue in particular is just beginning to grate on my nerves (anyone else who is also on their last nerve with this subject raise your hands....) - it has been talked about for over a year and still neither side seems to be winning the argument. Why? Because you can't. Neither side will ever give up their stance on this. This is an un-winnable argument and an un-winnable issue.

If you disagree with Bush – you can vote him out in November. If you agree with him, you can vote for him in November.

Thank you, and good night.
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"Only small minds want always to be right."
- Louis XIV

"...haven't you lived long enough to know that two men may honestly differ about a question and both be right?"
- Abraham Lincoln