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17 year-old disciplined for shotgun shells at school
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doug





Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 281
Location: Avondale, AZ

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Schools are not consistent on how they hand out punishment. The school that wife works at did nothing when a boy brought a razor and was caught cutting on the lunch table. But another boy got 10 days suspension for having a BB gun in his backpack, because it was a gun. I do not think that colleges look at school records. None of my Kids had any problems in school but they have friends that have and it was not a problem.
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Davis2001R6





Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 5591
Location: Italy

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Funny how Colin's staying out of this one, I probably would to in his position though.
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Suz





Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 3186

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Well, typically the school adminstration is just doing what the district/superintendency dictates they do. It's pretty spelled out for them.

I did email all of the Dysart School Board Members last night. I got the following response from one of them.

Dear Ms. Harnage,

Below is a letter I wrote in response to the numerous emails I've received regarding this incident. I hope it conveys my thoughts successfully.

Thank you very much for emailing me.

Bill .... (see below)

To each and every person who has taken the time to share their thoughts and concerns with me regarding the matter pertaining to the disciplinary action taken by Willow Canyon High School administration in response to the incident described, I would like to say this:

Thank You for your email and for expressing your concerns over this matter. I say that sincerely.

Note: I was not, nor to my understanding were any of the other members of the Governing Board, informed of this situation/action until after-the-fact (read in the Arizona Republic newspaper Monday morning) since it did not involve a long term suspension or expulsion (of which case the Board members would have received such information).

I am of the understanding that (by law) I am not permitted to discuss this particular case in any detail since it pertains to a minor (student) and I do not have all the facts surrounding this incident.

Nevertheless ... I do believe that the issue of implementation of board policies - perhaps more importantly, the interpretation and actual meaning/intent behind board policies as a guide to administrators - does warrant discussion by the governing board. I do plan on bringing this issue up for discussion by the Governing Board and Administration as an agenda item for the November 14, 2007 board meeting.

I, personally, have had major concerns over the sometimes "over/knee-jerk reaction" of society and school districts that followed the tragic incident at the Columbine High School (May 1999). I do believe that "fear" has displaced common sense and rational thinking when it comes to how adults - and people in authority/accountability - prepare for and react to certain incidents. I also believe that what has transpired since Columbine has transgressed into an environment of "litigation" ... where some lawyers are standing around ready to pounce on any questionable action/response and to sue anyone who has "deep pockets" (i.e., government and school districts).

Here is where I am coming from: I am not an advocate of "political correctness," nor am I someone who chooses to abdicate my belief that "common sense" should be the foundation of rational decision making. This belief, I think, works out very well in making intelligent decisions with the understanding that policies and laws cannot outline in detail all specific incidents and their consequences. When it comes to making disciplinary decisions I believe it important to (1) determine was the actual "intent" (if any) of the person(s) accused of committing the violation, and (2) ensure that the punishment fits the crime (and that it is not unusual or overly harsh).

As to the subject of "zero tolerance" policies, I will say this: I do not advocate for such rigid policies for there are often other mitigating factors which come into play. I also feel that such policies simply makes it much too easy for people in authority to relinquish their responsibilities in responding "intelligently and maturely" to certain incidents. A person has only to "Google" this topic to find numerous questionable responses by school districts which conflicts with common sense (i.e., a child bringing a plastic knife to school to cut her sandwich in half and being expelled for being in possession of a deadly weapon). This is just one example of why such rigid disciplinary policies infuriate people and cause them to see red.

I must also say this: When it comes to school administrators having to respond to a plethora of actual and potential incidents during the school day, I feel that many times they find themselves in a "porridge if I do, and porridge if I don't" situation. Unfortunately, administrators are not "psychic" and thus they cannot foretell exactly what a person's intentions are ... until, sometimes, it's too late. That is why I still stand by my belief that common sense and mature reasoning should guide all of us in our decision making. We should all do what we think is right without going off the deep end (and without being in fear of litigation).

Again, I really do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.

Bill

William B. Lipscomb
Dysart Unified School District #89
Governing Board Member
To Ensure compliance with the Open Meeting Law, recipients of this message should not forward it to other board members and board members should not reply to this message
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azhiker96





Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Hmmm, okay, is there a political analyst that can boil this down to a few words?

Is he "fer it" or "agin it"?
Also, will he do anything about it or just stand still on the fence?
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

azhiker96 wrote:
Hmmm, okay, is there a political analyst that can boil this down to a few words?

Is he "fer it" or "agin it"?
Also, will he do anything about it or just stand still on the fence?

Yes
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evenstar





Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 5548
Location: SCW by way of CA

PostPosted: 11/5/2007, 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

azhiker96 wrote:
Hmmm, okay, is there a political analyst that can boil this down to a few words?

Is he "fer it" or "agin it"?
Also, will he do anything about it or just stand still on the fence?


Maybe?
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thesuperstitions
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PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

It seemed to me that he was quite clearly in favor of NOT using a silly one-size-fits-all rule (Zero-Tolerance) to cover all incidents, and that common sense HAS to be a part of any findings by authorities. Just as any court of law considers mitigating circumstances when determining criminal intent in adjudicating a case.

Think about it a minute, if YOU absent-mindedly did something that others declare dangerous, and they have you arrested, wouldn't you want the judge and jury to take into account the circumstances (and lack of criminal intent) of your alleged offense?

Here's a little hypothetical for ya... a farmer drives his pickup into the local town and loads up with a supply of fertilizer. Then he goes to the filling station and fills a 50-gallon container with diesel fuel for his tractor. Now, most people with common sense would understand that this guy is going about his normal business and wouldn't think anything of it. But there are knee-jerk reactionaries among us that might "interpret" this guy's actions as those of a bomb-making terrorist and would want him arrested! Now, suppose the farmer also stopped by his daughter's elementary school to drop off her lunch. I'm guessing that with this absurd Zero-Tolerance policy, this poor schmuck has just made his last stop on the way to a Federal penitentiary!

It's a matter of how different people "interpret" the same set of facts, isn't it? Each person's interpretation is based upon their beliefs, FEARS and biases. So... the question is: Do we become a society where we see evil around every corner and design our laws such that we don't consider whether there is criminal intent surrounding an event?

Do we fear litigation so much that we feel forced to craft such laws and regulations and enforce them robotically?

Laws/regulations/policies are all too often designed to make the public "feel good". To make us feel "safe"... that we're "protected". They are only placebos though, to make us "feel like" we're doing "something".
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Suz





Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 3186

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote


She's really a lovely young woman.

I agree with Kent. I think this guy is going to start an important discussion about how policies are applied.
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Daryl





Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1168
Location: Everett, Washington

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

What's the big deal with a 4 day suspension? If stuff like that kept you out of college, college would be empty. Expulsion would have been over the top, suspension is a slap on the wrist.

Also, she broke 3 rules (cigs, parking, and the shells) and only one was an honest mistake. Take the punishment, lesson learned, life goes on.

And honestly, as a responsible gun owner I have to say shame on her for being careless with her ammunition!
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Suz





Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 3186

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I'm glad you posted something. I was wondering what the "gun" folks thought. I really see all sides of this situation but want her to have a chance at college. Honestly, I don't know what the colleges get from the High Schools. I've heard that if it's made into a big issue counselors might be told what to do.....if it is kept low key it could just disappear with discretion of the guidance counselor????


Explosive charges seem a bit much.........it wasn't a gernade, a pipe bomb or the like.
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Shawn
I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!




Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 2592
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I bought a "new" used Explorer a few years ago. Several months after buying it I was digging around in the back, looking for the jack and exploring the various storage compartments. To my surprise I found several rounds of .38 ammunition, I surmise the previous owner was a shooter of some sort.

I bought it thru a broker, who got iit at an auction. (I refuse to do business with car salesmen.) The broker had the car detailed before delivering it. I owned and drove the vehicle wherever I wanted over several months. No one involved, all of whom perhaps "should' have found it, did. I probably drove it to schools, and other places where "explosive devices" are prohibited.

Had these been discovered by some authority would I want a thinking, competent human involved or some mindless absolute policy designed to remove the responsibility for decision making?

I've lived long enough to know there are very few "absolutes."
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Suz





Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 3186

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

another good point!

so did you leave the ammunition there? dunno
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Daryl





Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1168
Location: Everett, Washington

PostPosted: 11/6/2007, 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I understand the argument against absolutes. But she put the ammo there, it was her ammo, she was SUPPOSE to be responsible for it. She didn't just misplace an ipod or a box of chocolates. She's lucky security found it and not a kid. SHe's also lucky the security guard didn't over react, call the police, and put the school in lockdown as I think there are laws against someone under 18 with ammo on school property for good reason. She could be much worse off.

I hope she learned a lesson, I doubt this will affect her college prospects, and I wish her all the best in the future.

And shame on the NRA for backing her up. It's cases like this that will be used as ammo for new gun laws. They should be signing her up for a class on being a responsible gun owner.
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azhiker96





Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: 11/7/2007, 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Times have changed. I took two bottle rockets to junior high school once and a buddy lit them off in the schoolyard during lunch. Just shot them into the sky. ziiiiiiiiip, pop....ziiiiiip, pop!
We were collared by the shop teacher and lit up with three swats each to the backside with a drilled, burnished "board of education". Makes my legs flinch just thinking about it. Crude but effective, I NEVER EVER took bottle rockets to school again.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 11/7/2007, 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I knew that "board of education" Oooooh so well......and regularly too.
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