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The War......
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Sande J
Calamity J




Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 725
Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have been watching the series, it is an awesome history lesson regardless of your feelings on war. Have your kids watch it too, it may make them realize what our country stands and bring some reality to how good they have it.... Unfortunately, war has been around as long as mankind and will most likely continue until Question Question , perhaps divine intervention.

The show is so well done with excellent footage and photos of many perspectives. One of the parts I liked the best is how Americans came together to mass produce the tanks and planes. I love how the women stepped up to become mechanics! Wink
The war affected everyone at home, I think that today some people don't even give a second thought to all the brave souls taking care of us overseas.

Many kudos to all those who served and all those who will continue to do so. God Bless them all....
Very Happy
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Desert-Boonie





Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Glendale, AZ

PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I don't want to get involved in the political talk, but Ken Burns has seemingly done it again with this series. His series on the Civil War was the best you could have done and now with WWII it seems as if he's taken his skill to the next level. There was talk that he didn't involve the Hispanic community well enough in this film though and though I missed half of part 2 last night I do not believe he mentioned anything of the Bracero Program which brought Mexican workers to the U.S. to work in the fields and railroads. Just maybe there was truth to the fact Burns should have included a little more in his film, but it is in his perspective and you don't get any better than Ken Burns. I hate the fact I have to miss a couple episodes because of work, but it should re-air and then you could buy it on DVD, although it will cost you over $100.

http://www.pbs.org/thewar/
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Davis2001R6 wrote:
evenstar wrote:
Took over five years to kill the millions who died in WW II; with todays weapons it will only take seconds.


Thats why there have been about 3800 killed in Iraq in the last 4 years.

Vietnam- 58K Killed
Korea - 36K Killed
WW2 - 400k Killed

I don't know if you see the trend here, but we fight smarter now days to avoid the mass casualties.


I would like to see the series though, do you know if they will replay the old episodes? I'll see if I can remember to TIVO it when I get home

Fight smarter. Two words that don't belong in the same two word sentence. (not mocking you Tim) Anyway the trend today is "Police Action." This way we can take 30 years to kill 400,000 of our boys. WWII was just plain non-stop balls-to-the-wall mahem.
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Davis2001R6





Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 5591
Location: Italy

PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Alright IGO, you got me with that one. Anybody know where I can get some Jumbo Shrimp?
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IGO





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PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Very Happy Weren't trying to get you Tim. I expect that certain political and humaine concerns are limiting casualties of non military persons in these "conflicts" but like Viet Nam, I wish we would either send 3 million over and wipe the slate clean or bring everybody home but lets get this mess over with.
I also insist that nothing takes away from the Second World War. It was so horrible and significant that most might say that the birth of Christianity is the only history more significant it was that important to human kind.
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Trishness
The Snake Charmer




Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 2530
Location: Apache Jct, AZ

PostPosted: 9/25/2007, 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Seems like 494,000 young men killed in war since 1942 is way too many. And that isn't even counting everyone, including civilians and the millions of Europeans of Jewish heritage that were exterminated.

My Dad served in the Pacific during WWII and he's rarely talked about it. My Ex served in Vietnam during the Tet offensive in 1968 and told me how horrific it was over there.

This series is well worth watching.
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Desert-Boonie





Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

IGO wrote:
It was so horrible and significant that most might say that the birth of Christianity is the only history more significant it was that important to human kind.


Are you kidding me? Christianity was the worst thing to happen to human kind. It is a shame when people want to use religion to justify actions and receive false promises. Comparing WWII and Christianity is something that should never be done.

Thank you Ken Burns for this film.
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RedRoxx44
Queen of the Walkabout




Joined: 15 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

My Dad, a 30+ year Air Force vet and World War II vet in the Pacific is watching some of this series. He too has commented little on his time over there, but I have learned something about it.
I was born in the Army hospital in Germany a lot of the Iraqi vets are taken to for medical triage. I grew up on a variety of stateside Air Force bases. As a little girl I liked to sit in the cockpit seats of the C-130's, B-52 etc.

Some of what I learned is that generation valued honesty, integrity, morals, loyalty and self sacrifice. Words you really hardly hear today, in the media, or in casual conversation. War is horrible and not everyone a hero for sure, but it seemed World War II did stand for something positive for the world, our country and our veterans.
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thesuperstitions
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PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

RedRoxx44 wrote:
...that generation valued honesty, integrity, morals, loyalty and self sacrifice. Words you really hardly hear today, in the media, or in casual conversation. War is horrible and not everyone a hero for sure, but it seemed World War II did stand for something positive for the world, our country and our veterans.


You hit the nail on the head.
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Davis2001R6





Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 5591
Location: Italy

PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Anybody see the Band of Brothers series or read any of Stephen Ambrose's books?

He was an amazing writer/historian on WW2 as well as some other things.

I've read
D-day
Citizen Soldiers
Band of Brothers
The Victors
and Nothing Like it in the World - about the transcontinental railroad.

I just caught a bit of "The War" last night, but se the TIVO to tape all episodes, so hopefully the old ones will play again. If not will have to do some searching on the web and D/L it.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Desert-Boonie wrote:
Are you kidding me? Christianity was the worst thing to happen to human kind. It is a shame when people want to use religion to justify actions and receive false promises. Comparing WWII and Christianity is something that should never be done.

I just can't let this one go.

First of all IGO was comparing significance to history (and please IGO, correct me if I’m wrong here). The most significant events that affected the largest numbers of people in the recorded history of the world are all either related to war or religion. A list of wars that are most significant from a historical perspective would have to include:

- The entirety of the Roman campaigns (establishing Roman law - still basically in effect today)
- The U.S. Revolution (establishing the dominant power in the world of the 20th and 21st centuries)
- WWI and WWII (which, because of their close proximity in both geography and history could be considered together and WWI was never really resolved, and directly led to WWII) - their lasting historical effect has been: the establishing of the US and Russia as dominant and opposing forces (cold war) through the remainder of the 20th century; the de-arming of Europe (along with a lack of major European land wars that has been in effect for longer than at any other time in history); the de-arming and eventual reconstruction of Japan and their becoming a dominant economic force in the world (there are plenty of others, but those are all pretty easily identified and agreed upon).
- The "Cold" War (the driving force behind economic, technological and political (including the Korean and Vietnamese wars) developments throughout the later half of the 20th century, also the driving force behind the proliferation of nuclear armaments and the build-up of massive standing armies - prior to WWII the U.S. standing army was minuscule by today's standards.
- I didn’t list most of the European wars because they were essentially an endless succession of wars that were not concluded or resolved until WWII.
- I also don’t list Asian wars as I don’t know enough about them to speak knowledgably about them.

The list of religious happenings that affected world history is an even easier create:

- The establishment of Judaism
- The establishment of Christianity
- The establishment of Buddhism
- The establishment of Hinduism
- The establishment of Islam

Non-war related events is much harder but would have to include:

- the development of agriculture (pre-recorded history, but still...)
- the "age of enlightenment' (Newton, Hook, etc.)
- the industrial revolution
- the nuclear age (Einstein, Bohr, Trinity, etc.)

By any measure, if you look at religion as an effect on world history then (other than stone-age tribes located in remote regions of the world) there is not one person on the planet that has not been affected in some way by the establishment of one of those religions. IGO is correct – it is arguably one of the most significant events in history as far as its effect on the world and it's population.

Now, your argument that Christianity was the “worst” thing to happen in history:

So, the Jewish Holocaust doesn’t count? What about Stalin’s reign of terror where during his stint in power the number of deaths attributed to his policies and programs ranges somewhere between 50 to 150 million killed? Did Christianity cause the millions of deaths of WWI and WWII? Did Christianity directly cause the build-up of arms during the cold war? What about ANY communist regime? How about the genocide in Africa right now?

I’m not going to bother trying to argue that Christianity is all peaches and cream – history is abundantly clear that religion of any sort (not just Christianity but Hinduism, Buddhism, Muslim, etc.) taken to the extreme has led to millions of deaths. But religion isn’t alone in that regard. The Communist regimes of the world have also been responsible for millions and millions of deaths and they were decidedly anti-religion.

I’m sorry, but arguing that Christianity is the “worst” event in history is a little simplistic. Just for the record, I don’t think you can call any single event in history as the “best” or “worst”. There is just too much to take into consideration. History doesn't really allow for that kind of parsimony.
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Abe





Joined: 11 Jul 2004
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Location: Prescott Valley

PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

No, I decided not to watch it. Talked to many WWII vets; from both sides the allies and the Axis (Germany, Italy, and Japan). Read so many books; admittingly, mostly the Pacific Campaign of WWII. And with my son having come back from Iraq a couple of weeks ago, I just decided to mellow.
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thesuperstitions
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PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

If you've never seen the WWII memorial on the mall in DC, it's one you'll never forget and I recommend that you visit if you're ever in the area. I've said it before, but it bears repeating... this is dedicated to the generation that literally saved the world. The memorial is deservedly beautiful and yet is filled with emotion and history. You can't help but be humbled by the impact of the sight of so many veterans of WWII, who come to this monument to reconnect... and so much more. It's just one of those places that you have to experience to understand.







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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Daddee. You said it. I was, if it can be done here, measuring impacts. Can't see a sentence where a comparison is made.
Tim, I watched Band of Brothers in one sitting.
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IGO





Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4144
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 9/26/2007, 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

thesuperstitions wrote:
If you've never seen the WWII memorial on the mall in DC, it's one you'll never forget and I recommend that you visit if you're ever in the area. I've said it before, but it bears repeating... this is dedicated to the generation that literally saved the world. The memorial is deservedly beautiful and yet is filled with emotion and history. You can't help but be humbled by the impact of the sight of so many veterans of WWII, who come to this monument to reconnect... and so much more. It's just one of those places that you have to experience to understand.


I stepped off the train in DC and found a bus going to the Mall. I didn't know I was going to get to go and I was seriously blessed when a sign at the Amtrac station said I could get to the Mall in minutes. I had no idea how the place was layed out so I just started walking. 8 hours later I was just wrecked. I could not have known how the day was going to evolve or how the visit was going to effect me. That was in 92 and I can drum up those feelings as I type. Brothers in Arms.
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