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DesertHkr





Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 24

PostPosted: 8/14/2004, 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I too like landscape photography, but when I decided to try something new from my 35mm I went to medium format film instead of digital. Projecting a landscape using slow, medium format slide film has to be seen to be believed for its sharpness and detail.

http://www.photographical.net/mf_vs_35mm_vs_digi.html
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: 8/14/2004, 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have used medium format film and like it for what it is. I have a really extensive background in film and today I shoot a whole lot of film with the Leica RC-30 9.5"x9.5" mapping camera. I have to tell you that after shooting film with an SLR or medium format or larger since 1970 I prefer digital for my own personal work by far. That article linked above used a Canon G1 with a tiny noisy sensor of 3.3 megapixels. Sensors have come a long way since those days.

I think both have their place but I don't miss the wet darkroom at all and really enjoy the new technology of image capture.

Here are a few professional thoughts on film vs digital;

In practical application, film is rarely (if ever) resolution limited, but is nearly always "grain" limited. The enlargement potential for a fine grain color capture at 35mm frame size maxes out at about 16 x 24. When you go larger, grain begins to seriously compromise aesthetics.
Professional level digital sensors such as you would find in the DRebel or 10D are all resolution limited, but have few limitations in terms of grain. What this means in simple language is that for narrow fields of view such as portraits, most macros, etc., there is no practical limit to enlargement. Beautiful 100 inch prints have been made of head and shoulders portraits from a 3MP Canon D30. When the field of view becomes wider, then resolution begins to become an issue. For wide angle landscapes with lots of detail enlarged to 16 x 24, it takes about an 11 MP EOS-1DS to outperform 35mm and it does so by a significant amount.

For most practical applications, a 6MP DSLR is a very satisfactory replacement for 35mm fine grain color film. It's not as good for 16x24 wide angle landscapes and is considerably better for large portraits.

the sensors in D cams have pixel density and size limits, the ccd and cmos used in them is very different in some ways to a regular micro processor. Noise is one issue, where the tighter the pixel density the greater the noise, the larger the pixels/less density the better. This is why a 6 mp medium format digital back has superb image quality vs a 6,8,11 mp dslr and the dslr has far superior image quality vs a 8 mp prosumer cam.

The most lucid discussion of the 35 mm film vs. digital comparison that I am aware of can be found in a special issue of Photo techniques magazine titled Mastering Digital Imaging. Ctein, a brilliant traditional printer, explains both the mathematics and the characteristics of human visual perception that explain the differences between the two media. It's well worth seeking out this article. His conclusion is that 35 mm film does have higher absolute resolution, but that grain from even the finest-grained films adds a layer of visual noise that impairs perceived resolution, while images from digital SLR's are virtually noiseless. The result is that 6 megapixel SLR's yield images that equal or better 35 mm film at most any reasonable print sizes. He goes on to point out that the smooth creamy tonality and absence of noise from good digital capture provides percieved image quality that can even exceed that of 4x5 film until you reach the resolution limit of enlargement.

William Neil in an article ("Intimate Nature") in "Digital PhotoPro" (July-August) says that one time Ansel Adams had a poster and print. The print was priced at approximately $7000 and the poster at $20. Neil asked which was better. Ansel Adams said the poster was much better because of the control he had over it through the use of the digital technology the printer had used.

"I eagerly await new concepts and processes. I believe that the electronic image will be the next major advance. Such systems will have their own inherent and inescapable structural characteristics, and the artist and functional practitioner will again strive to comprehend and control them." –Ansel Adams


Now Ansel is one of the most revered outdoor photographers on this planet and his development of the Zone System in 1940 is still used and discussed to this day.

I don't print to paper very much at all and when you add in scanning to the film for webwork whether it be portraits or landscape I go for digital over all but that's just my opinion.

Anyway I look forward to viewing your images and discussing photography with you further. This is a passion I never grow tired of. I am reading The Thousand Mile Summer as we speak and Colin Fletcher was a prolific photographer with some great discriptions of the pursuit. He carried a medium format and a 35mm on his 1958 walk form Mexico to Oregon through California.
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HUM469





Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 228
Location: Peoria, AZ

PostPosted: 8/14/2004, 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Very interesting posts so far Glen, I was wondering then if you can offer some advise, provided in all your studies you have come across what I am about to ask. Are you familiar with the new Sony F-827 (I think that is the model) 8MP digital. I would like to take good quality landscape on all my travels as well as photography of homes I am working with. (I'm a realtor, and I prefer to put together my own ads) The new Sony is said to be superior to anything else around $900 because it is the only 8MP, and it also records 4 colors instead of three. But I have also heard it refered to as a prosumer, and if I read what you quoted correctly, it says that a 6MP SLR (cannon d-rebel) will be better, correct? See my thought is that the lens on the Sony has both the telephoto and f stop range of two rather large Cannon lenses. Therefor the I would have less bulk and weight to carry with the Sony (not to mention that the second lens to get the same range is another $400, making the Cannon $1400 for the same apparent capability instead of $999), but I really don't want to sacrifice quality. I doubt that I will ever need to print anything larger than 11 X 17, but who knows? And I know about all the reviews out there on the web, but I have never been able to find out just how much "real world" experience any of these reviewers is able to achieve. Also, I have found an equal number of really good to really bad reviews. It's been confusing and off putting enough to make me think that reviews are totally worthless. If the reviewers aren't directly paid by the manufactures, I have to think there is some other force making them extremely bias.
I realize you probably have not used the camera. What I am asking I suppose is if you have read anything, and if you have any advice that you can interject to help me make heads or tails of all the confusion I have run across. You seem to do a lot of similar photograhy to what I like to do. At least when I am traveling anyway. Perhapse your experience can weigh in a little. Oh, and no, the camera shops I have been to are no help either. Seems they all think I need to buy a pro-level nikon at about $3,500-7,000 and be done, after all, why sell myself short right? Never mind that my wife would mount my head on a pike if I ever spent that much, and I will never be a pro, but you know Very Happy Thank you in advance, I know this is a long post, and I will try to be more to the point in the future, I promise! Mr. Green
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I hesitate to say something is better or worse than something else. There are usually tradeoffs. The top end Sony's come with some really nice glass and I have seen many stunning images come out of them. I have not used one myself but the proof is in the image and I have seen a lot. Don't be put off by the prosumer moniker. Usually they do have the smaller sensors and that does mean more noise so they should be used at the lowest ISO settings. That means a tripod for the crispest images. The smaller sensor also means an incredible depth of field though. For landscape and macro work that is a real good thing.

If you are a hiker or light weight means something to you then the camera like you are looking at and the other light weight offerings have a lot of value just for that alone. Like I said Sony has great optices and they do capture very, very nice images.

These images were taken with the out of date, small sensor Canon G2. It has it's issues but as you can see it can do a decent job. For small prints of 8x10 and below these cameras will do an excellent job. For web work they are awesome.

Crabby beach bum captured below. Mr. Green



Linda deep in Kayenta sandstone on an overcast day.



and this high meadow butterfly was captured on a hike with our very own Lizard.



so try to make a good decision based on your uses, needs and budget but don't become to wrapped up in the popular game of what is the best. I don't think there is a best and the best you can do is learn to use what you have, take time to think about composition and exposure. That will get you through.
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Shawn
I'll sell you map to Lost Dutchman mine!




Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 2592
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ

PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Glen,

I heard something recently about digital SLR's that surprised me, and that was that the lenses from the 35 mm lenses work on the digital SLR's. I believe the example given in that discussion was for Cannon. I have several Zuiko (Olympus) lenses for my 35mm bodies do you know if Oly DSLR's use the old lenses?

Thanks

Shawn
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DesertHkr





Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 24

PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Good points. I didn't mean to start a war over film vs. digital, that's been done many times on the photography net forums. My point was only that there are other quality solutions out there for landscape shooters who don't care for digicams. For me, I don't like their relative fragility and sensitivity to heat in the desert, nor am I impressed with consumer-quality digicam prints at anything close to display size (8x10). Comparisons aren't easy using different equipment on a web page, of course. The problem with comparing film to digital starts with method: do you compare computer scans from film against digital photos or prints from transparencies to printed digital photos? Once that is decided, which scanner, which printer, which image, and which monitor (or loupe and eyeball) will display the end result for comparison? Maybe this is why 35mm film's digital equivalent has been rated by different 'experts' from a low of 6MP to a high of 25MP.

I also like slides and prints for display and storage. I haven't found any reasonably priced digital approach to what I do, considering cost of camera, new computer, storage, Photoshop software, digital projector, etc. so film for me is still an answer. Both medium format and 35mm cameras have been going for very low prices these days as people buy digital replacements, and that's been a boon for me. But, who knows? If Nikon or Canon come up with a digicam with the build quality of an FM3a, I might bite again.
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 1375
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Shawn I think some of the older Zuiko lenses may fit the newer Oly digital bodies but I'm not completely sure. I have four old lenses I bought for my OM-1. They are not auto focus lenses but if if they will in any way work for you and you do decide to get a new Oly body you are sure welcome to them. You will have to use them manually is the only thing if they do indeed fit. I have a 28mm, 50 of course, 100mm and 200mm.

DesertHkr, It's all good. In my post there is a passage that says in printing wide angle landscape photography 35mm film begins to have a distinct advantage till you reach about 11 megapixels. Medium format is still very awesome for printing, very awesome. For me that is the key word, printing. I really don't do it unless I'm writing a letter and then the images are pretty small. I have a few aunts and uncles who don't do the computer but love to get illustrated letters. Little custom cards are nice as well but for the most part I'm a 640 wide web worker. That is best for now with both posts and emails.

Canon has the 1D-MkII now that is weather sealed and very professional quality but at a back breaking price of IIRC $3500 or so for the body. It weighs a ton as well.

I am currently awaiting the not yet announced successor to the Canon 10D. Word around the campfire is it's going to be announced mid-September or so. It should have a few features I am missing now.
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HUM469





Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 228
Location: Peoria, AZ

PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Thank you very much Glen for your thoughts. I am not too caught up in "what is best" except to say, spending a grand I do not want to unknowingly limit myself. I must say I really do like the Sony's 28-200mm lens a lot. At least I think that is what I remember it being. But as I said, I have not been able to see any images taken on the camera by someone whom I would consider very skilled, but it does bring me relief to hear you say what you have seen off of it is good. In the very near future I am going to have to swallow my doubts and make a move. Your input has helped make it less anxious and uncomfortable to go ahead! Thank you. Very Happy
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: 8/15/2004, 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dylan the actual model I found is the Sony DSC-F828. The images I saw on www.photosig.com are awesome. One guy has shot and posted up almost 500 images of just about every kind of subject you can shoot, landscapes, portraits, macro, you name it and they are all stunning with a lot of detail anc great color. You have to be a member to veiw anything over 72 hrs old. I joined when you could just walk in years ago but it may be more complicated now. Anyway I would not hesitate to use that camera. There were a few others that had the camera and they looked just fine.

www.dpreview.com has a Sony forum that may be of help as well.

It looks good to me but do some more research before you decide.
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HUM469





Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 8/16/2004, 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Thank you again Glen. I really do like those images in the links you posted. Also, I think I am signed up with Photosig, though I am awaiting the confirmation e-mail to sign in. I have not gotten to read that other review just yet, though I skimmed through and it looks very comprehensive. Again, thank you for your time, and thank you for helping put my mind at ease!
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Daryl





Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: 8/16/2004, 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

The F828 is a great camera.

Just to confuse you more though, check out the Canon Pro1 and the Nikon Coolpix 8700. Similar cameras and similar prices. Both are probably smaller and lighter then the F828 (I know the Canon is). Also, both have a flip out swivel LCD screen which is a must have feature after you use a camera that has it.

Read reviews and see sample pictures of every digital camera here:

http://www.steves-digicams.com

This web site is like the bible of digital cameras.
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Davis2001R6





Joined: 12 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: 8/16/2004, 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Daryl that website was great! It just made my Favorites. Just wish I had the money for a new camera.
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HUM469





Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 8/17/2004, 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Actually that is not a confusion. They are both decent cameras, but the nikon actually shows more noise and less resolution that the sony, and in both cases, they just don't feel right in my hand. Almost too light I think. Plus the big thing that excited me about the Sony was it's the first digital non-SLR with manuel zoom and focus rings. I am sick and tired of the push button zoom on all my non-slr cameras, that I might scream if I have to deal with it much longer! Smile Thank you for the suggestions though. I really think the Sony is the right one for me now that I have seen some samples and what-not. Only thing slowing me up now is that someone told me it's about time for Sony to announce the 828's replacement! And looking at the history, that is probably true. So do I buy it now and cure my urge to photograph, or do I wait just a little longer? After all, the replacement might be that much more fun. Or at the least, the 828 will probably come down in price right?
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BoyNhisDog
The dangerous place where the winds meet




Joined: 05 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: 8/17/2004, 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dylan Here is a link to the now 500+ images that kayabay/Deniz Sevki has posted up at Photosig (now that you are signed in) on the Sony. I think they speak for themselves. He really has done a bit of everything with it and done it well.

You are right that the price usually drops after the replacement is announced. Good luck on your choice.
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