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DoFear





Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: 4/10/2004, 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

mikeinFHAZ wrote:
9mm haha thats funny! you cant even take down a grown man let alone a 260lb. bear!

Randy, Im in the market for a .40 Sig or HK. What have you heard about these (sub-compacts)?

I still have not seen bears, have looked for typical signage, nothing.
Im an ultra-lighter, and the canisters are huge! My pack is only 2400 inches, geez. Ergo, the bag and string works well, at only 1 oz.



I actually own a HK USP Compact in .40 cal. I love it. I have over 10,000 rounds fired. I had to start reloading to afford that much shooting. You can't go wrong with a Sig either. My Compact is actually smaller than a Glock 23 and with the option of of carrying in different "conditions" made it the choice for me. If you would like to hook up sometime and try mine. I have no problem with that. I would even throw in some instruction if you want.

As far as bears are concerned I take many precautions as well. We ran into a young bear at the Black River. He was young but probably weighed in at 80-100 pounds so we didn't think there was going to be a mother bear around, but we didn't stick around long to find out.
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MikeInFHAZ





Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1401
Location: location location

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I really have no problem with a 9mm,
I do have a desire to purchase a firearm with more stopping power. I have looked into the reviews for a SigArms p226, in the .40 s&w caliber. Seems it is a very high performance handgun, used by many police and military figures around the world. Although, not too appealing in the looks department like many guns who use aeshetically pleasing lines for more marketing "appeal". I have to think I'm more function over fashion, anyway. The Italian made Beretta is a close second, I think.
Is there a hip holster that will not interfere with a waist belt?
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MikeInFHAZ





Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1401
Location: location location

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cynhikr, yet another option is to use a product called "spiderline", which is a braided saltwater fishing line and say a 40 lb. test strength is only .02mm thickness. Kinda hard for a mouse to hold onto... But it is very hard to see and tangles easier than parachute cord.
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Daddee
I once was a slug.




Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 2815
Location: Mesa, AZ

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have been a proponent of the 2 tree method for a long time - suspending the bag between two trees so that it's not directy below a main branch. Granted - the method is a little more difficult and requires more rope - but I really like having my food protected.

I've had a few squirels jump down and get into bearbags that I just suspended from one tree. They're clever little buggers. Fortunately, for the most part squirels aren't nocturnal so you're usually okay if you hang the bag after dark.

Randy's advice about "smellables" is really nice as well. I've actually been in a camp near a guy who got a minor mauling by a bear that tore right through his tent. From all appearances the bear was trying to get at his Chapstick - he left it in his pants pocket, and, well, now he's missing a bit of his "cheek" if you get my drift. Earlier that same summer there was a camper who had a minor encounter with a bear who was snuffing around his armpits - he had put on deoderant that night. No injuries - but one very, very scared 14 yr old.

Of course, both those incidents were in a pretty bear intensive location in New Mexico.

Depending on who's telling the story bears are either a big problem, or a minor one, bordering on a non-issue. Myself - I prefer to err on the side of caution.
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DoFear





Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

mikeinFHAZ wrote:
I really have no problem with a 9mm,
I do have a desire to purchase a firearm with more stopping power. I have looked into the reviews for a SigArms p226, in the .40 s&w caliber. Seems it is a very high performance handgun, used by many police and military figures around the world. Although, not too appealing in the looks department like many guns who use aeshetically pleasing lines for more marketing "appeal". I have to think I'm more function over fashion, anyway. The Italian made Beretta is a close second, I think.
Is there a hip holster that will not interfere with a waist belt?


Not that I have found. When I'm backpacking I use a leather fanny pack. I put on my pack and thread the belt from the fanny pack around my back. I shift everything around until it's comfortable, but I always have to shift it all again after the pack settles down into proper position. The weight of the fanny pack actually seems to help counter-balance the pack weight. It's concealed so it doesn't make anyone nervous and right there at my hands. No digging around for it.
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DoFear





Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

OK OK. Now of you that do carry a firearm what do you think about giving a "warning shot" when a bear is lurking? I have only had two bear encounters in my life and neither wanted anything to do with me. I don't think I'm up for a bear checking me out because I put on deoderant. If I have my kids/wife out with me then I can't count on them to remain calm while I let a bear wander through camp.
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MikeInFHAZ





Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1401
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PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I shudder at the sound of the words "fanny pack" Laughing I prefer to use the term "man purse". Ok, that sounds funny too... lets call it a PFCC (personal field concealment compartment)
I agree about the warning shot, thinking that loud noises of such magnitude would suffice... I dont feel it is ever necessary to harm another person or animal for that matter, in a non life-threatening situation. I cannot be a judge on these matters, for never even have I seen a bear. I cannot wait until I am privelidged to do so..the thought of self preservation always lurks in the back of my mind, I do many solo hikes. Crap, Im even afraid of skunks at times!
DoFear, you have a concealed weapons permit? Is the class worth it? I considered this for myself.
also, if I keep buying all this expensive lightweight gear, pretty soon I will fit all I need into just a fanny pack!
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pfredricks





Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 347
Location: Peoria, AZ

PostPosted: 4/11/2004, 11:10 pm    Post subject: guns r us Reply to topic Reply with quote

Kurt, as always, you are the fountain of hiking knowlege. I love that Marrison Haul system.

One thing sort of bothers me a little-
It seems like everytime a bear discussion comes up the shootin' subject is sure to follow. While shooting may be an option, I think that the emphasis should definitely be placed on preparation and options. Since we are hikers, I like to think of us as stewards of the lands that we love, which would mean not killing unless it is absolutely the last option.
Randy the Cat Valet is well versed as always. Again, I like what he had to say, and REdroxx makes sense too.

I think preparation is the key. One should know exactly what their reaction will be before it happens-because if you practice it you will do the right thing when the event actually occurs, not panic and make a stupid mistake. Truth is I am guilty of not knowing what to do exactly. Probably should.
1. Prevention
2. Reaction

For example would a dog whistle work better than a warning shot? What about a regular whistle.

What exactly is the proper reaction? Stop? walk slowly backwards? Look big as possible? Make lots of noise?

Please tell me.

Oh, then shoot. 9MM would be fine!
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DoFear





Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: 4/12/2004, 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

mikeinFHAZ wrote:
I shudder at the sound of the words "fanny pack" Laughing I prefer to use the term "man purse". Ok, that sounds funny too... lets call it a PFCC (personal field concealment compartment)
I agree about the warning shot, thinking that loud noises of such magnitude would suffice... I dont feel it is ever necessary to harm another person or animal for that matter, in a non life-threatening situation. I cannot be a judge on these matters, for never even have I seen a bear. I cannot wait until I am privelidged to do so..the thought of self preservation always lurks in the back of my mind, I do many solo hikes. Crap, Im even afraid of skunks at times!
DoFear, you have a concealed weapons permit? Is the class worth it? I considered this for myself.
also, if I keep buying all this expensive lightweight gear, pretty soon I will fit all I need into just a fanny pack!


Yes I have a CCW. The class is worth it. They include lots of good information. I have take the class now 3 times. 1 for the original class, sixteen hours, and the retest which is only 8 hours. I took the first class at Glendale Community college which is the cheapest way, but I prefer the class at Shooters World. The instructors there are always very good from my experience.

I recommend the tactical classes as well. With more knowledge gives you more options on how to get out of a situation without having to shoot. They do a lot of situational training for the tactical classes. I have completed tactical 1-3. I took them because I was process serving for a couple years and had a few scary situations.
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DoFear





Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: 4/12/2004, 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

pfredricks.


I'm with you. I don't want to ever have to shoot any animal without an absolute need. I think the shooting aspect always comes up because humans, even the strongest of us, are at a huge disadvantage against a bear. Bears seem to be the one animal that has shown it will approach humans. I'm sure we have all seen the footage of bears breaking into cars to get food. A car is a smelly collection of nasty metals, plastics, and lubricants that any animal should turn it's nose up at, but they still break into them. It's not fair to the bears because they are only following their instincts. We have to do a better job of educating park goers about storage of food.

My issue is not really when I'm out with my friends it's more when I'm out with my children. My kids are 12, 10, and 6. I don't care what anyone says, a six-year-old girl will not be able to control her fear if a bear or mountain lion shows up. She is the weakest of our "Herd" and would be the target of a preditor.

I think I would try and use my whistle first. Maybe even throw rocks or I may start to carry pepper gas, but you have to be real close for that to work. Pepper spray has a nasty habit of turning on it's user in windy conditions.

After all the planning the only thing that makes sense is a firearm. Survival could depend on it.
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primerob





Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: 4/19/2004, 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

"I feel that if you don't see them much they can't be too prevalent"
I'm sorry, but this is a position of pure ignorance concerning wildlife. You might try spending a couple days with a really good set of optics. You will be amazed at the amount of wildlife that is out and about. Or talk with some fish and game biologests.
As for 9mm and bears-Not quite as laughable as once thought. the full metal jacketed bullets that are so popular in 9mms have done quite well even with the big coastal browns in Alaska. For instance a well documented case 2 summers ago at the Russina river, and Ankorage resident dropped a big sow at his feet with a head shot. His shot gun armed buddy paniced and THREW his loaded 12 quage at the bear. It did turn away and go after his 9mm pistol packing buddy, so I supose it "worked." I generaly carry a 357 or a .44 mag. When my kids were in the kid pack and we lived in grizzly country, heavy loaded .44 mags were the pistol of choice. Having said that I have had far more problems w/wild people than wild animals (Except for mice during an very extended stay in a teepee). Bullet selection is far more important than caliber or type of action. Camp site selection and camp cleanliness will do the most good, as far as keeping bears out of your gear.
Catvalet seems to have the best advice as far as a clean camp and bear "proofing."
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primerob





Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: 4/19/2004, 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Is there a hip holster that will not interfere with a waist belt?
2 kinds work for me an inside the waistband style like Milt Sparks Summer Special, or a good pancake style. Roy Baker's Hidden Thunder style pancakes are made by Bianchi now days. You can tighten your hip belt right over the top of either of these styles.
Uncle Mike's verticle shoulder holsters work really well and they double as suspenders. Great when packing out a load of meat. Or packing in too much
gear:-)
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evenstar





Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 5548
Location: SCW by way of CA

PostPosted: 4/19/2004, 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

This weekend I carried my 9mm in a paddle holster; had the paddle tucked inside the webbing that cinches the waist belt, then cinched it up nice and tight....no problem.
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When the Man waked up he said, "What is Wild Dog doing here?" And the Woman said, "His name is not Wild Dog anymore, but the First Friend, because he will be our friend for always and always and always. Take him with you when you go hunting."
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primerob





Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: 4/19/2004, 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

A paddle? Great idea. I have made holsters to snap over the hip belt, then transfer to the pant belt, but that sounds like a much better aproach.
I started making and selling a simple rugged pancake style for hunting and hiking use. I started this out of frustration at not having a suitable option for using a hip belt with a heavy pistol.
Thinking about it, I did have a pissed off bull moose once contest the trail that we were hiking on. My boy, then about 4 was just out of my reach in front of me as the young bull came charging up the trail. That .44 appeared in my had as if by magic. I remember the distinct feeling of having a weapon that felt as about as substantial as one of those little charm bracelet cap guns. Fortunatly, the moose decided to turn around and charge back down hill.
I too would hate to have to shoot an animal or human to defend myself or my loved ones. But, it is better to have some options other than begging for mercy or thinking good thoughts.
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evenstar





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PostPosted: 4/20/2004, 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

primerob wrote:
I too would hate to have to shoot an animal or human to defend myself or my loved ones. But, it is better to have some options other than begging for mercy or thinking good thoughts.


I'm with you there, but occasionally you run into varmits that really may deserve a bullet; take this weekend at Reavis Ranch.....There were several critters that, at first glance, deserved one right between their beady little eyes. But after long and careful deliberation I finally found something worthwhile in each of them.......one ended up providing food and I didn't have to kill or carve it, ugly as it was; another provided a potent form of drink and I didn't have to milk it; a third was determined totally useless, but had two little critters with it. Claimed to be their sire, but the level of intelligence and charm THEY showed as opposed to the bigger critters total lack of same belied this. The last varmit....think it was called a Cabana Critter, wasn't nearly as useful as its name might suggest, but it was, by far, the most decorative of all the critters!
At any rate, all these varmits are still out there somewhere and though they appear harmless you never can tell with desert varmits.
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When the Man waked up he said, "What is Wild Dog doing here?" And the Woman said, "His name is not Wild Dog anymore, but the First Friend, because he will be our friend for always and always and always. Take him with you when you go hunting."
--Rudyard Kipling, from Just So Stories, 1902
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